Slitherine

In a tournament today, I had to rule on the following situation.

1. a flank march arrives

2. there is a light foot unit within six inches of the table edge at an angle.

3. We interpreted that the evade had to be perpendicular to the edge even though the troops coming on were not directly perpendicular to them (Correct?)

4. the light foot had to evade

5. It turned 90 degrees

6. It could interpenetrate the unit it met but the interpenetration could not clear the interpenetration. and would therefore be destroyed.

The question was then asked - should the unit then avoid the interpenetration and shift across one base width.

My ruling was no.

The rationale was the failure to complete the interpenetration due to insufficient space behind does not mean the unit could not interpenetrate that unit and therefore is unable to shift across.

Your views

A diagram or pictures would help but FWIW I think you got most of it right - but I think I disagree with the final bit.

Point 3 - correct - see page 153 - evade perpendicularly away from the table edge.

Points 4 & 5 - no problem.

Point 6 - why destroyed? Page 72 - evaders that cannot complete an evade move, move as far as they can.

I think you have confused this with page 51 which relates to BGs busting through - not evading.

I agree with the point you made about not allowing a shift, since it could interpenetrate.

Check the pages I've listed and see what you think?

Probably this isn't necessary, but just in case:

Point 2: "LF within 6 inches of the table edge", actually page 153 says 'within 6 MUs of the point of arrival".

And to add to what Petedalby said about shifting:

Page 72 says a shift is allowed to get past friendly troops it cannot interpenetrate. LF can interpenetrate all troops, so it has no need to shift. It just has to have room behind the BG it wants to get through, which you indicated that yours didn't.

Just to amplify the example (as the flank marcher).

The first BG that the evading single-base-wide column of light foot met was the side edge of a friendly pike phalanx. A further 4 or 5 BGs of pike were lined up alongside the first BG in true phalanx style. So the LF were potentially faced with a massive teleport from one end of the pike phalanx to the other. We understood that this type of teleporting was verbotin under v2. So Hoodlum ruled that the LF could not interpenetrate and were unable to complete their evade move. Accordingly he ruled that they were lost (picked up and removed fro the table).

After reflecting on this we then wondered whether or not the LF could move one base width to the side to avoid the (disallowed) pike phalanx interpenetration by running along the face of the pike BG. Unfortunately by this time the LF bases had been moved from their original position and there was some doubt as to whether or not a one base width shift would, in fact, have cleared the pike BG.

Bbotus seems to be saying that the one base width shift is only permitted to troops that can't interpenetrate the friends blocking their evade. LF as a troop type CAN interpenetrate pike so this suggests they DON'T get the option of a one base width shift. But THIS LF can NOT interpenetrate because of the anti-teleporting rule - so do they get the shift option or not?

I guess a further option not considered at the time was for the LF to go as far as they could and stop at the edge of the pike BG. However, this would have meant the LF had NOT fulfilled its obligation to complete their evade move.

right. First off, check whethe the LF can interpenetrate. Since there's a would bunch of BGs in that direction the last bullet on page 49 is relevant. "if a BG does not have sufficient move distance to pass fully through another BG it can nevertheless pass completely through if there is room beyond and any of the following apply (otherwise it cannot pass through at all)". It'll be the case that it won't have the move to pass fully through a pike BG and there'll be no room beyond. So it can't pass through at all.

So. You now flick back to page 72. I know the troops were moved but let's run through it:

- say the LF were advancing with the pike in a tidy line, all front edges in a nice straight line with the LF two deep. The LF turn 90, and can't interpenetrate. They'll shift exactly one base sideways and run down the face of the pike.

- if the LF were hanging back a bit, they can't shift sideways enough to complete there evade. So they must burst through the pike (6th bullet on p72: if you can't interpenetrate or dodge, you burst through friends).

Back to page 51 (second column) for the burst through rules. Move the LF. Let's say they end up in the middle of two pike blocks. The LF are placed beyond if there's room. There isn't so they are destroyed. The pike are not disrupted though (pg72, bottom of first column: BGs passed through by evaders who can normally interpenetrate them do not count as burst through)

All of which was avoidable by the pike player. when the flank march dice roll signals arrival, that's for the next move, not this. So those LF had a turn's grace to scoot somewhere less problematic.

In terms of your last point it's not an issue of whether the LF can interpenetrate pike generally, it's that evaders interprenetrate if allowed to do so (top of page 72) - so you have to be the right troop type and in the right situation. These LF scored 1 out of 2 there. And yes, if they can't interpenetrate they may be able to shift.

The front rank of the LF cannot voluntarily stop at the edge of the pike in an evade: "if the above would not allow all front rank bases to complete their evade move the BG...must instead burst through with not shifting of contraction"

The actual wording for the BG encountering obstructions (9-17) is "It interpenetrates friends if allowed to do so". In the circumstances quoted, interpenetration is not allowed. Therefore you have to consider the other options. I see no reason why a shift is not permissable if that would enable the evade. If it would not, the LF would burst through their friends.

Just to clarify point three above.

The first move made by outflankers must be perpendicular to the table edge.

dave_r wrote:Just to clarify point three above.

The first move made by outflankers must be perpendicular to the table edge.

True, but so what?
RAW 21-9:

"Battle groups within 6 MUs of the point of arrival of enemy flank marchers...make an immediate evade move perpindicularly away from the side table edge..."

grahambriggs wrote:right. First off, check whethe the LF can interpenetrate. Since there's a would bunch of BGs in that direction the last bullet on page 49 is relevant. "if a BG does not have sufficient move distance to pass fully through another BG it can nevertheless pass completely through if there is room beyond and any of the following apply (otherwise it cannot pass through at all)". It'll be the case that it won't have the move to pass fully through a pike BG and there'll be no room beyond. So it can't pass through at all.

So. You now flick back to page 72. I know the troops were moved but let's run through it:

- say the LF were advancing with the pike in a tidy line, all front edges in a nice straight line with the LF two deep. The LF turn 90, and can't interpenetrate. They'll shift exactly one base sideways and run down the face of the pike.

- if the LF were hanging back a bit, they can't shift sideways enough to complete there evade. So they must burst through the pike (6th bullet on p72: if you can't interpenetrate or dodge, you burst through friends).

Back to page 51 (second column) for the burst through rules. Move the LF. Let's say they end up in the middle of two pike blocks. The LF are placed beyond if there's room. There isn't so they are destroyed. The pike are not disrupted though (pg72, bottom of first column: BGs passed through by evaders who can normally interpenetrate them do not count as burst through)

All of which was avoidable by the pike player. when the flank march dice roll signals arrival, that's for the next move, not this. So those LF had a turn's grace to scoot somewhere less problematic.

In terms of your last point it's not an issue of whether the LF can interpenetrate pike generally, it's that evaders interprenetrate if allowed to do so (top of page 72) - so you have to be the right troop type and in the right situation. These LF scored 1 out of 2 there. And yes, if they can't interpenetrate they may be able to shift.

The front rank of the LF cannot voluntarily stop at the edge of the pike in an evade: "if the above would not allow all front rank bases to complete their evade move the BG...must instead burst through with not shifting of contraction"

No, the LF were not advancing in a nice straight line with the pike phalanx. They were hanging back a bit and had chosen to wheel towards the flank march (when its arrival was successfully diced for) and as a result came within 6 MUs of the table edge.

Looks like Hoodlum ruled correctly - because the LF should burst through the pike but there was insufficient room beyond, they were destroyed and removed from the table.

zoltan wrote:

dave_r wrote:Just to clarify point three above.

The first move made by outflankers must be perpendicular to the table edge.

True, but so what?
RAW 21-9:

"Battle groups within 6 MUs of the point of arrival of enemy flank marchers...make an immediate evade move perpindicularly away from the side table edge..."

Sorry - misread the original post. I thought that the flank marchers had come on at an angle and were therefore trying to make the Light Foot flee in an "unusual" direction.

After reading all your comments and rereading the RAW, I've changed my mind. I think Graham has it right. The LF first try to interpenetrate, then shift, and burst through if all else fails. That said, one thing still bothers me.

Page 51 says, "In various circumstances BGs may be forced to burst through other BGs that they cannot normally interpenetrate" In this situation, the LF can 'normally' interpenetrate pike. The page goes on to talk about BGs burst through by friendly evaders or routers dropping one cohesion level and any such BG bursting through with no room beyond is destroyed. Page 72 says, "(Note that BGs passed through by evaders who can normally interpenetrate them do not count as burst through.)" So they are breaking through the pike but not 'bursting through' as per page 51. They do not cause a drop in cohesion so the 2nd column on page 51 really doesn't apply. Now the 2nd to last diamond on page 72 says, "BGs that cannot complete an evade move by any of the above means move as far as they can, and are likely to be caught."

Before you destroy the LF, you need to explain why the LF couldn't move up to and stop in contact with the 1st pike BG as per this 2nd to last diamond on page 72. Why else is this sentence in the rules?

bbotus wrote: Now the 2nd to last diamond on page 72 says, "BGs that cannot complete an evade move by any of the above means move as far as they can, and are likely to be caught."

Before you destroy the LF, you need to explain why the LF couldn't move up to and stop in contact with the 1st pike BG as per this 2nd to last diamond on page 72. Why else is this sentence in the rules?

They don't stop because there is no mechanism for them to stop and instead they burst through. However, if the pikes were enemy troops the evade move would stop short. So had they been evading from a charge they could be caught.

grahambriggs wrote:

bbotus wrote: Now the 2nd to last diamond on page 72 says, "BGs that cannot complete an evade move by any of the above means move as far as they can, and are likely to be caught."

Before you destroy the LF, you need to explain why the LF couldn't move up to and stop in contact with the 1st pike BG as per this 2nd to last diamond on page 72. Why else is this sentence in the rules?

They don't stop because there is no mechanism for them to stop and instead they burst through. However, if the pikes were enemy troops the evade move would stop short. So had they been evading from a charge they could be caught.

I'm thinking the mechanism is that they are specifically allowed to move as far as they can and not complete the evade move per that 2nd to last diamond. The stopping short of enemy troops is handled in a preceding paragraph: "...halt 1 MU away..." and "...if it starts closer to them than 1 MU, does not move at all."

So what is the verdict for the LF meeting the flank of 5 bgs of friendly pike in a phalanx?

1. Teleport all the way to beyond the fifth bg?

2. Complete as much (but not all) of their evade move as possible and stop short of the nearest bg of friendly pike?

3. If it would allow them to complete their evade move, slide one bg to the side and run along the face of the pike phalanx?

4. Be removed from the table and lost due to being unable to complete their evade move?

4.

In my view, they cannot interpenetrate therefore are entitled to shift/drop back. If that doesn't allow them to complete an evade they burst through the pikes. If they can't complete the burst through, they are removed.

'4' may very well be the answer (remove the LF). But that answer doesn't explain the existence of the sentence in the 2nd to last diamond on page 72 "(BGs that cannot complete an evade move by any of the above means move as far as they can, and are likely to be caught)." Can anyone explain its meaning? If we accept '4' as the answer, I can't think of any reason for that sentence.

bbotus wrote:'4' may very well be the answer (remove the LF). But that answer doesn't explain the existence of the sentence in the 2nd to last diamond on page 72 "(BGs that cannot complete an evade move by any of the above means move as far as they can, and are likely to be caught)." Can anyone explain its meaning? If we accept '4' as the answer, I can't think of any reason for that sentence.

Yes, that sentence does seem to be a catch all, 'if none of the above options works, just move as far as you can. Bad luck if you get caught in the rear.' It does seem to undermine the earlier 'destroyed if you can't complete an interpenetration' option.

zoltan wrote:

bbotus wrote:'4' may very well be the answer (remove the LF). But that answer doesn't explain the existence of the sentence in the 2nd to last diamond on page 72 "(BGs that cannot complete an evade move by any of the above means move as far as they can, and are likely to be caught)." Can anyone explain its meaning? If we accept '4' as the answer, I can't think of any reason for that sentence.

Yes, that sentence does seem to be a catch all, 'if none of the above options works, just move as far as you can. Bad luck if you get caught in the rear.' It does seem to undermine the earlier 'destroyed if you can't complete an interpenetration' option.

Yes, it confuses the issue for me. So I'm obviously reading something wrong. I'm just not sure which parts.