davekhan wrote:Hi all
Its good to see all your points of views of troops classes ,
Matt
I don't think you have the grip of the rules in my eye ! you need to play more and under stand the rules more .
A orc army screams out to me that its a warband army .
Gauls and Germanics are really a poor analogy for Orcs, with the possible exception of the First Age.
While the Orcs are fast moving undrilled units (I don't know what would have given you the impression they were not), Tolkien describes them in a great variety in various places.
And... They have no cavalry at all other than Wolf-riders used at various times (minor evidence of their use in the First Age), which would be more akin to Light Horse or Camelry (except instead of sand not slowing them down, it is brush that they tend to ignore) than to Cavalry. They are described as frightening Horses both in the First and Third Ages.
But as to the arming of the Orcs, they could be anything from Unprotected (which during the Third Age, most were) to Armored (lots of chain and big shields, which seems to be what gives all manner of other things
Armored status.
There is mention of different arms in the Southern Orcs compared to the Northern Orcs (who were also more heavily armored due to their looting of Dwarven Mines and Weapon Stores in both Gundabad and Moria), with the Northern Orcs being denser blocks of Troops, and the southern Orcs mostly being more massed bodies.
There are a few instances of Spear Armed Orcs acting like what FoG called "Offensive Spearmen" (The Orcs at the Morannon and in the First Age).
But most Orcs would be simply Poor, Unprotected, Undrilled, Medium Foot/Mob ( 8-12 bases), and the better armed/armored Orcs being Poor/Average, Protected/Armored, Undrilled, Medium/Heavy Foot - Light Spear (6-12 bases).
Also, Orcs are not at all homogenous. Very few Groups would be the same, as Orcs are a Tribal and Insular society, with each group having distinct styles of fighting and weapons.
So you might have masses of Battle Groups that differed wildly and all Commanders being Allied Commanders, each able to only lead their own contingents (this is what we have done in all of our games).
It was only during the First Age, and during the
War of the Ring, specifically at Pelennor and the Morannon where Orcs were led by regular commanders who were not Allied Commanders (and here, it was Nazgûl and Black Númenóreans that were the generals).
We've played several game both against Elves and Rohirrim where the Orcs seemed to fare pretty well with this.
And, if we are talking Uruk-Hai, or Morgûl Uruks, then Drilled is definitely an option.
davekhan wrote: orcs in my eye are fast moving undrilled units very little cav , you wind them up at the start of the battle and let them go ! they hit hard on the impact turn ,then slow down /run out of steam in the combat round IF the defending unit can hold its line in the impact round then they should come out on top in the end..
we play are fantasy game in more of a dark age theme so knights on big white horses and full plate mail is out the window to me..
I think that my orcs would not be able to keep a tight formation when moving in battle lines they just don't have the discipline that a Dwarf or elf would have by keep the dressing as they march into combat..
But Orcs did keep tight formation at several Battles.
The Nirnaeth Arnoediad, The sack of Goldolin, The Rape of Eregion, The Battle of five Armies, Pelennor, and the Morannon all had Orcs who were massed very densely. In the essay
On Orcs, Tolkien describes them as being very disciplined in warfare, but only when they are closely supervised. This is especially true during the First Age when the Boldoeg Orcs were numerous enough to keep a rigid rule over the lesser Orc species.
But, as I said, there is a
lot of variety in Orc formations, varying by geography greatly.
In the Hithaeglir, Orcs are described as being armed with large axes and cleavers, and with many having bows.
In the Southern Hithaeglir, Orcs are described as having spears and cleavers, and many with bows as well. They are also described as many of them being more heavily armored than the Northern Hithaeglir Orcs (although all Hithaglir Orcs are more heavily armored than are the Grey and Ash Mountain Orcs who do not live inside the border of Mordor).
These are a variety of:
Poor/Average, Unprotected/Protected/Armored, Undrilled, Heavy/Medium Foot - Light Spear/Impact Foot (Bow or Bow* optional, depending upon numbers present) in groups of 6 - 12. There are limited numbers of Protected and Armored and Bow Armed (although the number of Bow Armed is greater in the North than the South). One or Two BGs might have Swordsmen skill.
Also, Western Hithaeglir Orcs are also lighter armored and armed than are Eastern Hithaeglir (Elrond's boys and the Dúnedain keep the Western slops of the Hithaeglir pretty tightly controlled and give the Orcs a mess of trouble). The Western Hithaeglir Orcs are what most people think of when they think "Orc;" at least by the descriptions.
These are the typical:
Poor, Unprotected/Protected, Undrilled, Medium foot - (Light Spear/Impact Foot - with one or two BGs having Swordsmen skill).
Inside Mordor, you have a huge variety of Orcs. This is where most of the variety comes from (Offensive Spear from Minas Morgûl and Barad Dûr, Impact Foot from Udûn and North Mordor, etc).
If you have players who want to mini-max, this can lead to problems... But that is the case for anything.
There just is no terrestrial analog to Orcs, especially Middle-earth Orcs. Tolkien was really mixing tropes with Orcs. The most typical thing he used was the Mongol or Steppe Nomad, but these were Mounted and Orcs are not. Asiatic Foot (Chinese) were also an influence. But he was using stereotypes of these peoples and other tropes in his imagination of Orcs.
There isn't any simple way to approach them.
MB
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