Slitherine

Hi all!

These two dark ages Byzantine armies look very like, but they're different, which one do you prefer and why? Tactical analysis in next posts..I really can't figure out which one to use, since I have models suitable for both...tips?

Sorry for bad English/wrong topic place, newbie here!

Take the Early. The average lancer/Bow are awful. They charge further than they shoot, so rarely shoot against a decent opponent

My preference is for Early Byzantine as well, and for much the same reason. One ends up needing to hide the Maurikian average lancers + bow CV too often for it to be a good all around list.

My results with the Early Byzantine have been all or nothing: either I win the tournament or sink like a stone. Either way, Early Byz is a fun list to play.

Marc

I rather gree with you, if it doesn't matter having light spear infantry, it's a better list...now my idea is to maximise light horse and barbarian (Goths or drilled Vandals) to have real skirmish and real shock troops, instead of downgrade cavalry to a point waster armoured light horse..still, since 8 line cavalry are compulsory, I really need some advice on how play them...btw other lists are plenty of them, there will be a way to use them efficiently..the compulsory buccellari (4) should be a nice reserve force...or deploy them in a wing? Tips? Take more of them, 'couse they're superior? Then, I don't know how mf or lf separated archers are worth too...and medium foot (isaurians)?


EDIT: and what if deploying buccellari as lancers bow*, instead of 1/2 lancers 1/2 bow? They loose shooting capability quicker, but, with 6 bases bg you have still 2 dices if you loose two bases, and they're more useful as shock troops, since they can be deployed on a single line and you don't risk after the first loss to fight in close combat with bow cavalry...let me know if you got the meaning.

Don't use Bow* lancers.

If you lose 2 bases of lancers and just have 2 bow left you do not have to charge to destruction and can evade with them.

Lancers Bow* are shock until fragmented so will charge themselves to death.

And 6 bases battlegroup? Decent (2 dices) shooting capability until 3rd loss.. My concerns are about loosing one base...they are still shock troops, but with one base without impact phase capability...seems problematic..

For superior cavalry 6 base batlle groups are very expensive and a lot less manouverable. So I would normally never consider taking them.

This is true too...you get some, you lose some...About other questions?

philqw78 wrote:For superior cavalry 6 base batlle groups are very expensive and a lot less manouverable. So I would normally never consider taking them.

One BG of 6, led by a general, can be useful to throw in at the point of maximum effort. Six combat dice, re-rolling 1s and 2s, is a lot of combat power. But Phil's comments are also worth considering. You have to pick which advantages and disadvantages you prefer.

Marc

NOTE: I did not say that Phil was correct.

Nonetheless, if you don't want to charge, with a general you need a 5..4 if IC..worth the risk, I think...thank you a lot for every comment!

Sample list, Early Byzantine 798 points
IC, TC, TC

1x6 Bucellari, CV, Arm, Sup, Dril, Bow*, Lancers ,Sw
2x4 Roman Cv., CV, Arm, Sup, Dril, Bow, Sw
1x4 Hunnic mercenaries, LH, unpr, sup, und, bow sw
1x4 Hunnic mercenaries, LH, unpr, av, und, bow sw
3x4 Gothic cv., CV, arm, sup, undril, lancers, sw

2x8 Legiones: 6 HF, pr, av, dril, light spear, sw; 2 LF, unpr, av, dr, bow
1x6 separately deployed archers: 6 LF, unpr, dr, av, bow

babyshark wrote:NOTE: I did not say that Phil was correct.

But you wanted to.

The list looks good, but small. Not sure the legion proportions of LF are legal, but don't have a list here

I would drop a legion and change 6 Bucellari to 2x4.

Early Byzantine 800 points
IC, TC, TC

2x4 Bucellari, CV, Arm, Sup, Dril, 1/2 Lancers ,Sw, 1/2 Bow, Sw
2x4 Roman Cv., CV, Arm, Av, Dril, Bow, Sw
1x4 Hunnic mercenaries, LH, unpr, sup, und, bow sw
1x4 Hunnic mercenaries, LH, unpr, av, und, bow sw
3x4 Gothic cv., CV, arm, sup, undril, lancers, sw

1x12 Legiones: 8 HF, pr, av, dril, light spear, sw; 4 LF, unpr, av, dr, bow
1x6 separately deployed archers: 6 LF, unpr, dr, av, bow

Is this better, in your opinion? Proportions were wrong: 2/3 HF and 1/3 LF

ItalicaAcies wrote:Early Byzantine 800 points
IC, TC, TC

2x4 Bucellari, CV, Arm, Sup, Dril, 1/2 Lancers ,Sw, 1/2 Bow, Sw
2x4 Roman Cv., CV, Arm, Sup, Dril, Bow, Sw
1x4 Hunnic mercenaries, LH, unpr, sup, und, bow sw
1x4 Hunnic mercenaries, LH, unpr, av, und, bow sw
3x4 Gothic cv., CV, arm, sup, undril, lancers, sw

1x12 Legiones: 8 HF, pr, av, dril, light spear, sw; 4 LF, unpr, av, dr, bow
1x6 separately deployed archers: 6 LF, unpr, dr, av, bow

Is this better, in your opinion? Proportions were wrong: 2/3 HF and 1/3 LF

That is an improvement, and is fairly close to what I have run in the past. Better still would be to break the Legiones into two separate BGs of 4 HF + 2 LF. That gives you an extra BG for army break point purposes, and makes them more maneuverable.

Marc

2x4 Roman Cv., CV, Arm, Sup, Dril, Bow, Sw

Can these guys be Superior?

For some inexplicable reasons, no, they can't..So I edit (just wrong typing, point sums checked are right)

babyshark wrote:
That is an improvement, and is fairly close to what I have run in the past. Better still would be to break the Legiones into two separate BGs of 4 HF + 2 LF. That gives you an extra BG for army break point purposes, and makes them more maneuverable.

Marc

Really? How does it run on the battlefield? IMMO, splitting legio into two BGs leave them a bit fragile...But I've tried..

ItalicaAcies wrote:Early Byzantine 800 points
IC, TC, TC

2x4 Bucellari, CV, Arm, Sup, Dril, 1/2 Lancers ,Sw, 1/2 Bow, Sw
2x4 Roman Cv., CV, Arm, Av, Dril, Bow, Sw
1x4 Hunnic mercenaries, LH, unpr, sup, und, bow sw
1x4 Hunnic mercenaries, LH, unpr, av, und, bow sw
3x4 Gothic cv., CV, arm, sup, undril, lancers, sw

1x12 Legiones: 8 HF, pr, av, dril, light spear, sw; 4 LF, unpr, av, dr, bow
1x6 separately deployed archers: 6 LF, unpr, dr, av, bow

Is this better, in your opinion? Proportions were wrong: 2/3 HF and 1/3 LF

I like the legiones in a 12. 4 wide, 3 deep. Will hold the line against good enemy for a long time if the IC stays with them while the cavalry do their job.

Do you think more than one (big) legion is needed here?

ItalicaAcies wrote:Really? How does it run on the battlefield? IMMO, splitting legio into two BGs leave them a bit fragile...But I've tried..

I think of the Legiones as filler, who spend their time protecting the baggage and generally looking fierce, rather than as troops who are going to contribute. I tried to use them offensively in several early game, but they just turned into targets. On the other hand, as baggage guards, they have successfully seen off marauding LH and LF.

Marc