Slitherine

The whole difficult moves section seems a lot more complicated than the quick reference sheet. The whole section in the rules should be made like the quick reference sheet.

It is not clear how complex moves are supposed to be tested for in the rules. For example it could be viewed that you declare what type of move you want to make (e.g. 180 turn) and test for that. If that fails then you can test for another type of complex move.

It seems that you can place generals in the front rank with scythed chariots. This seems a little silly.

It is possible for scythed chariots to route after the melee phase. In this case they are not removed from the battle field (unless enemy remains in contact). This seems a little silly. Especially as you could then rally them... (however this makes some sense as at Magensia the Seleucid scythed chariots disordered their own battle lines when they ran away).

It seems a little weird that if scythed chariots rout then troops within 3” take a cohesion test. If they are removed then they do not cause a test.

Impassable terrain. Extremely steep hills do not seem to affect visibility in any way and probably should be specified.

Light foot running away from a charge and end up not quite interpenetrating a friendly battle group behind. So end up with the front rank on the far side of the friendly battlegroup and the rear rank on the near side. Enemy catch them in the rear and the rear rank turn to face.
a) Do they count rear support for the friendly battle group that is splitting them (bearing in mind that there is no clearly defined rear as both ranks are facing away from each other).
b) They cannot reform?
c) In melee when the rear rank turn do they get a second rank for combat dice?

Can you move through ambush markers? Does the movement through ambush markers depend on the type of troops “underneath” the ambush marker?

A column hits the corner of a battle group. In the movement phase they conform. But they end up in a jagged formation that represents the angled column but with every element in the battle group in parallel with the enemy battle group they hit.

bddbrown wrote:The whole difficult moves section seems a lot more complicated than the quick reference sheet. The whole section in the rules should be made like the quick reference sheet.

It is not clear how complex moves are supposed to be tested for in the rules. For example it could be viewed that you declare what type of move you want to make (e.g. 180 turn) and test for that. If that fails then you can test for another type of complex move.

First bullet point - "if a BG/BL fails its CMT it can make a simple move" possibly needs to be strengthened to be "... can only ..."

It seems that you can place generals in the front rank with scythed chariots. This seems a little silly.

Should generals be permitted to join them at all?

It is possible for scythed chariots to route after the melee phase. In this case they are not removed from the battle field (unless enemy remains in contact). This seems a little silly. Especially as you could then rally them... (however this makes some sense as at Magensia the Seleucid scythed chariots disordered their own battle lines when they ran away).

It seems a little weird that if scythed chariots rout then troops within 3” take a cohesion test. If they are removed then they do not cause a test.

Impassable terrain. Extremely steep hills do not seem to affect visibility in any way and probably should be specified.

Light foot running away from a charge and end up not quite interpenetrating a friendly battle group behind.

Don't forget the LF that start interpenetrating can move normal+2 - effectively rolling +2 - so long as they get clear.

So end up with the front rank on the far side of the friendly battlegroup and the rear rank on the near side. Enemy catch them in the rear and the rear rank turn to face.
a) Do they count rear support for the friendly battle group that is splitting them (bearing in mind that there is no clearly defined rear as both ranks are facing away from each other).

Yes - they are behind every base of the LF.

b) They cannot reform?

NOTE: Normal formation is not in the glossary at the end, I am assuming it is what is defined on P7.
No - they can't achieve normal formation. Indeed unless they caqn expand I don't see how they can get out of the mess they are in.

c) In melee when the rear rank turn do they get a second rank for combat dice?

It doesn't get to turn - it can't reform or conform

Can you move through ambush markers? Does the movement through ambush markers depend on the type of troops “underneath” the ambush marker?

Not specifid - I would suggest generals and LF can others's can't

A column hits the corner of a battle group. In the movement phase they conform. But they end up in a jagged formation that represents the angled column but with every element in the battle group in parallel with the enemy battle group they hit.

It's worse than that - the second rank does not conform so it you hit when parrallel but not lined up the front rank slides but the rear rank doesn't - I think it needs rewording to any unit providing a dice or PoA can conform. They would be able to line-up in feeding bases in but without the ability to move friends that are in the way. This is a potential killer for pike.

It is not clear how complex moves are supposed to be tested for in the rules. For example it could be viewed that you declare what type of move you want to make (e.g. 180 turn) and test for that. If that fails then you can test for another type of complex move.

The rules state:
• If a battle group or battle line fails its CMT, it can make a simple move.
• Once the dice have been rolled, that battle group or battle line must make its move, if
any, before others are moved or tested. It is not permitted to arrange to conditionally
make or change a move depending on the result of a subsequent battle group’s test.

It doesn't say you can test for a second, different complex move, it says 'it can make a simple move'
I normally just state to my opponent 'I'm making a complex move test for this BG'. I then make the test and then declare which move I'm going to make - which may still be a simple move. You must complete this BG's move before moving any other BG.

It seems that you can place generals in the front rank with scythed chariots. This seems a little silly.

Silly, but risky. Scythed chariots weren't that uncontrollable - until they started their charge. They made it to the battlefield didn't they? If you want to risk a General in the fronk rank of chariots you're free to do so, but don't blame me if you lose him.

It is possible for scythed chariots to route after the melee phase. In this case they are not removed from the battle field (unless enemy remains in contact). This seems a little silly. Especially as you could then rally them... (however this makes some sense as at Magensia the Seleucid scythed chariots disordered their own battle lines when they ran away).

That's the general idea. If they route for any reason they may well burst through their own lines. That was one of the reasons why we put removal of auto-broken BG's at the end of the Joint Action PHase.

It seems a little weird that if scythed chariots rout then troops within 3” take a cohesion test. If they are removed then they do not cause a test.

It's because they're supposed to die while breaking the enemy line. No-one expects them to charge towards their own lines. I'd certainly be worried if there was an uncontrollable chariot anywhere near me! Friendly or not!

Impassable terrain. Extremely steep hills do not seem to affect visibility in any way and probably should be specified.

An extremely steep hill is still a steep hill, just like a quarry is a large gully. The terrain type of 'impassable' covers a large selection of terrain types, some may even be man-made. This is one of those areas that we had to make a decision to balance word-count/complexity against playability/simplicity. We wanted to allow people to use a different mix of terrain to that normally seen on a battlefield, but it needs to be defiined when placed. In a normal 'friendly' game it's not a problem, but in a competition, if someone brings a piece of terrain that appears to be cheesy, you can always call an umpire over to rule for/against it.

Light foot running away from a charge and end up not quite interpenetrating a friendly battle group behind. So end up with the front rank on the far side of the friendly battlegroup and the rear rank on the near side. Enemy catch them in the rear and the rear rank turn to face.
a) Do they count rear support for the friendly battle group that is splitting them (bearing in mind that there is no clearly defined rear as both ranks are facing away from each other).
b) They cannot reform?
c) In melee when the rear rank turn do they get a second rank for combat dice?

a) Yes - but they're DISR by being hit in the rear so it cancels out.
b) Not unless the intervening troops move.
c) No. The rank immediately to their rear belongs to another battlegroup.

Can you move through ambush markers? Does the movement through ambush markers depend on the type of troops “underneath” the ambush marker?

Only if they could normally do so - if the ambushing troops were on the table - and physically occupying just the space taken up by the ambush marker.

A column hits the corner of a battle group. In the movement phase they conform. But they end up in a jagged formation that represents the angled column but with every element in the battle group in parallel with the enemy battle group they hit.

The rules state:
At the start of the manoeuvre phase, the active player’s battle groups already in close combat
with the enemy must (unless otherwise stated below or physically impossible) pivot and/or
slide bases by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact:
The battle group must end its conform move in a normal formation. except that each file steps forward
to line up with the nearest file already in contact with the enemy.
If bases are in contact with the flank of enemy bases as a result of a charge that did
not qualify as a flank or rear charge, the battle group must pivot to conform with the
front edge of the enemy battle group, sliding the minimum necessary to contact the front
edge of at least one enemy base, or to an overlap position if this is not possible.This
may sometimes look odd, but is a game mechanism to provide on-table clarification
that the enemy battle group is not fighting the enemy in 2 directions in the melee phase.

What all this means is that they end up 'in normal formation' other than being stepped forwards to maintain contact.
In the above case they pivot as a block to end up with the base that contacted the corner lined up in contact with the contacted bases front edge.

It's worse than that - the second rank does not conform so it you hit when parrallel but not lined up the front rank slides but the rear rank doesn't - I think it needs rewording to any unit providing a dice or PoA can conform. They would be able to line-up in feeding bases in but without the ability to move friends that are in the way. This is a potential killer for pike.

This isn't the case. It's the whole BG that conforms not the bases in contact. You never end up with some bases conforming while others don't - unless hit in the flank.

terrys wrote:I normally just state to my opponent 'I'm making a complex move test for this BG'. I then make the test and then declare which move I'm going to make - which may still be a simple move.

This saves a lot of time, because if you fail the test you don't have to waste time thinking out your cunning complex move in detail.

If I see my opponent dithering over whether to make a complex move or not, I usually suggest he throws the dice anyway - it may make the deicision for him so we can get on with the game.

terrys wrote:

It is not clear how complex moves are supposed to be tested for in the rules. For example it could be viewed that you declare what type of move you want to make (e.g. 180 turn) and test for that. If that fails then you can test for another type of complex move.

The rules state:
• If a battle group or battle line fails its CMT, it can make a simple move.
• Once the dice have been rolled, that battle group or battle line must make its move, if
any, before others are moved or tested. It is not permitted to arrange to conditionally
make or change a move depending on the result of a subsequent battle group’s test.

It doesn't say you can test for a second, different complex move, it says 'it can make a simple move'
I normally just state to my opponent 'I'm making a complex move test for this BG'. I then make the test and then declare which move I'm going to make - which may still be a simple move. You must complete this BG's move before moving any other BG.

So this statement is more about new players joining and looking at the rules. Sure I (we) all understand how this is supposed to work and also what good form is. However looking at the rules I don't feel it is clearly stated enough that you roll for a CMT to make any complex move rather than say specifying which complex move you are testing for. Certainly there is scope to make this clearer.

On a related note getting rid of "difficult" moves would also help.

terrys wrote:

It seems that you can place generals in the front rank with scythed chariots. This seems a little silly.

Silly, but risky. Scythed chariots weren't that uncontrollable - until they started their charge. They made it to the battlefield didn't they? If you want to risk a General in the fronk rank of chariots you're free to do so, but don't blame me if you lose him.

Seems a lot less risky than putting a general in the front rank of other troops. 3 dice at impact gives you a better than normal chance of winning a combat and therefore a lot less change of losing the general.

Regardless of the risks, it's still plain silly.

terrys wrote:

It is possible for scythed chariots to route after the melee phase. In this case they are not removed from the battle field (unless enemy remains in contact). This seems a little silly. Especially as you could then rally them... (however this makes some sense as at Magensia the Seleucid scythed chariots disordered their own battle lines when they ran away).

That's the general idea. If they route for any reason they may well burst through their own lines. That was one of the reasons why we put removal of auto-broken BG's at the end of the Joint Action PHase.

Ok. I can see this from both sides. I'm happy with running away but rallying them seems a little silly?

terrys wrote:

It seems a little weird that if scythed chariots rout then troops within 3” take a cohesion test. If they are removed then they do not cause a test.

It's because they're supposed to die while breaking the enemy line. No-one expects them to charge towards their own lines. I'd certainly be worried if there was an uncontrollable chariot anywhere near me! Friendly or not!

Ok.

terrys wrote:

Impassable terrain. Extremely steep hills do not seem to affect visibility in any way and probably should be specified.

An extremely steep hill is still a steep hill, just like a quarry is a large gully. The terrain type of 'impassable' covers a large selection of terrain types, some may even be man-made. This is one of those areas that we had to make a decision to balance word-count/complexity against playability/simplicity. We wanted to allow people to use a different mix of terrain to that normally seen on a battlefield, but it needs to be defiined when placed. In a normal 'friendly' game it's not a problem, but in a competition, if someone brings a piece of terrain that appears to be cheesy, you can always call an umpire over to rule for/against it.

Not a great answer I think. You are basically asking umpires to make the rules up as they go. I would prefer to see a bit that says the placing players defines what it is and whether it blocks sight or not.

terrys wrote:

Light foot running away from a charge and end up not quite interpenetrating a friendly battle group behind. So end up with the front rank on the far side of the friendly battlegroup and the rear rank on the near side. Enemy catch them in the rear and the rear rank turn to face.
a) Do they count rear support for the friendly battle group that is splitting them (bearing in mind that there is no clearly defined rear as both ranks are facing away from each other).
b) They cannot reform?
c) In melee when the rear rank turn do they get a second rank for combat dice?

a) Yes - but they're DISR by being hit in the rear so it cancels out.
b) Not unless the intervening troops move.
c) No. The rank immediately to their rear belongs to another battlegroup.

Thanks.

terrys wrote:

Can you move through ambush markers? Does the movement through ambush markers depend on the type of troops “underneath” the ambush marker?

Only if they could normally do so - if the ambushing troops were on the table - and physically occupying just the space taken up by the ambush marker.

So as an opposing player you need to track what moves over the ambush marker during the course of the game and then raise objectons afterwards. Seems like a recipe for awkward umpire calls. I would prefer ambush markers to be treated as a something definite. Say Heavy Infantry as the worst case scenario. Blank ambush markers can be removed to allow clear movement.

terrys wrote:

A column hits the corner of a battle group. In the movement phase they conform. But they end up in a jagged formation that represents the angled column but with every element in the battle group in parallel with the enemy battle group they hit.

The rules state:
At the start of the manoeuvre phase, the active player’s battle groups already in close combat
with the enemy must (unless otherwise stated below or physically impossible) pivot and/or
slide bases by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact:
The battle group must end its conform move in a normal formation. except that each file steps forward
to line up with the nearest file already in contact with the enemy.
If bases are in contact with the flank of enemy bases as a result of a charge that did
not qualify as a flank or rear charge, the battle group must pivot to conform with the
front edge of the enemy battle group, sliding the minimum necessary to contact the front
edge of at least one enemy base, or to an overlap position if this is not possible.This
may sometimes look odd, but is a game mechanism to provide on-table clarification
that the enemy battle group is not fighting the enemy in 2 directions in the melee phase.

What all this means is that they end up 'in normal formation' other than being stepped forwards to maintain contact.
In the above case they pivot as a block to end up with the base that contacted the corner lined up in contact with the contacted bases front edge.

Hmm. This looks a lot different to the set of rules I have. I'll take a look at this in more detail tonight. I know this is more effort, but do you have page numbers here. I've seen a couple of real problems in this area recently and it seems it is due to my understanding of the conforming rules. I'd like to nail this one, either correct my misunderstanding or raise any issues from a position of knowledge.

bddbrown wrote: Hmm. This looks a lot different to the set of rules I have. I'll take a look at this in more detail tonight. I know this is more effort, but do you have page numbers here. I've seen a couple of real problems in this area recently and it seems it is due to my understanding of the conforming rules. I'd like to nail this one, either correct my misunderstanding or raise any issues from a position of knowledge.

Check out the "changes from 6.0" thread. The conforming wording has been significantly changed due to anomalies arising from the previous wording. We cannot easily give you page numbers as the page numbers are significantly changed in our working version.

There are no plans to issue another full updated Beta version prior to publication. The management apologise for any inconvenience etc. etc.

rbodleyscott wrote:

bddbrown wrote: Hmm. This looks a lot different to the set of rules I have. I'll take a look at this in more detail tonight. I know this is more effort, but do you have page numbers here. I've seen a couple of real problems in this area recently and it seems it is due to my understanding of the conforming rules. I'd like to nail this one, either correct my misunderstanding or raise any issues from a position of knowledge.

Check out the "changes from 6.0" thread. The conforming wording has been significantly changed due to anomalies arising from the previous wording. We cannot easily give you page numbers as the page numbers are significantly changed in our working version.

There are no plans to issue another full updated Beta version prior to publication. The management apologise for any inconvenience etc. etc.

Thanks Richard. Ok, that makes ssnse. I ahve been struggling with the clariifcations. As there is no plans to provide an update i will have to go to plan B.

The whole difficult moves section seems a lot more complicated than the quick reference sheet. The whole section in the rules should be made like the quick reference sheet.

This has come up before, not sure what the outcome was...

The difficult move concept seems clunky compared to the way the QR sheet deals with it.