Slitherine

Hey guys,

Anyone have a view on Viking cloaks being tartan? I'm not talking full on Modern Scots style tartans, but more subdued versions.

Any thoughts?

I thought tartan was a Celtic thing,

For that reason I have given it to my Ancient Britons, with all members of a battlegroup having the same pattern.,

Never connected it with Vikings at all.

I was going to give my Saxons all the same shield design within a battlegroup and make the Vikings totally freeform.

I can't see why not. Thracians and Afghans had it many years earlier.

I don't see why not, there was plenty of Norse/Celtic interaction in Scotland & Ireland.

Caliph wrote:I don't see why not, there was plenty of Norse/Celtic interaction in Scotland & Ireland.

Interaction... now there is a pleasant politically correct way of saying rape and pillage!

From wikipedia - suggests there is no reason why Scandinavians shouldn't have similar patterns.

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Origins

Today tartan may be mostly associated with Scotland; however, the earliest evidence of tartan is found far afield from the British Isles. According to the textile historian E. J. W. Barber, the Hallstatt culture of Central Europe, which is linked with ancient Celtic populations and flourished between 400 BC and 100 BC, produced tartan-like textiles. Some of them were recently discovered, remarkably preserved, in Salzburg, Austria.[4] Textile analysis of fabric from Indo-European Tocharian graves in Western China has also shown it to be similar to that of the Iron Age Hallstatt culture.[12] Tartan-like leggings were found on the "Cherchen Man", a 3,000 year-old mummy found in the Taklamakan Desert in western China (see Tarim mummies).[13] Similar finds have been found in central Europe and Scandinavia.[5] The earliest documented tartan in Britain, known as the "Falkirk" tartan, dates from the 3rd century AD. It was uncovered at Falkirk in Stirlingshire, Scotland, about 400 metres north-west of the Antonine Wall. The fragment was stuffed into the mouth of an earthenware pot containing almost 2,000 Roman coins. The Falkirk tartan has a simple check design, of natural light and dark wool. Early forms of tartan like this are thought to have been invented in pre-Roman times, and would have been popular among the inhabitants of the northern Roman provinces[14][15] as well as in other parts of Northern Europe such as Jutland, where the same pattern was prevalent.[16][17][18]
John Campbell of the Bank, 1749. The present official Clan Campbell tartans are predominantly blue, green and black.[19]

Tartan as we know it today, is not thought to have existed in Scotland before the 16th century.

ShrubMiK wrote:From wikipedia - suggests there is no reason why Scandinavians shouldn't have similar patterns

Thanks Shrub,

Never thought to search for Tartans... did all my searching online on Vikings

Now I feel even more stupid

Eques wrote:For that reason I have given it to my Ancient Britons, with all members of a battlegroup having the same pattern.,

Just an aside, I don't think there is anything wrong with giving all your figures the same pattern to create a 'clan' so-to-speak, but the concept of 'Scots clan tartans' is very new (like post 1800). I think to paint up a unit of one clan would look fantastic, but is also using modern history to mindset an ancient people. "Never let the facts get in the way of a good paintjob" is an adage I go by, but just thought I'd point out the origin of 'clan tartan' to all who might stumble upon this thread later.

Interesting.

Ancient Celts are generally illustrated (eg in the Osprey Books) as wearing tartan, or something similar to it. Is that entirely fanciful or is it based on something?

I've just finished painting up a large Ancient Briton army and could have saved myself a whole lot of time if I'd given them all plain brown trews!

I think to paint up a unit of one clan would look fantastic

Actually I did think halfway through it would have been impressive to do the whole army in one pattern but too late by then.

The first army I did was EAP, and I gave each man his own stylings but then it occurred to me afterwards that they probably had tribal patterns too.

Eques, I think tartan as a design is ancient. Tartan as a clan symbol is a fantasy created in the 1800's. I'll try to find my book on it, but right now I can't locat it.

The idea of 'X set means you're wearing MacGreggor' is not factual (until now).

I DO however believe that a certain group MAY have had simple sets purely because it's it's the way they weaved, not because they followed some defined pattern. Think of it as a knitting pattern. If your mother's mother shows you how they do it...

I believe that Roman historical documents talk of the Picti wearing 'stripes', but how do you describe "tartan" without the word for either tartan or checkered? It IS striped... in a way.

So the idea of your celts being in tartan I think is perfectly fine. The idea of them being in small units of same tartan I think is a little fanciful, but not enough to worry about (certainly a lot less than Arthur's knights being in Gothic plate... but I wouldn't have it any other way), and is very much what would be expected.

Not sure about this but wasn't the clan tartan thing part of a Victorian reboot of the whole Highland culture that had been so savagely repressed a couple of generations earlier when the Georgian dynasty was only just putting down roots and faced by the Jacobite threat?

Hi all,

So, you're a Viking. You're aboutto go to sea (which btw is salty). How do you keep your helmet from getting all rusty?

1- Oil
2- Paint
3- Use bronze instead of steel.

Any thoughts?

A nice bit of mutton dripping would seem to fit the Viking stereotype!

I like your "method" painting approach, by the way.

I am currently painting some Parthian horse archers and am wondering whether to give some of them dark blue tunics - or would they only want to wear light colours in the desert?

Eques wrote:I am currently painting some Parthian horse archers and am wondering whether to give some of them dark blue tunics - or would they only want to wear light colours in the desert?

Medium or light blue. I think dark blue would be rare. Light colors seem right

Eques wrote:A nice bit of mutton dripping would seem to fit the Viking stereotype!

I like your "method" painting approach, by the way.

I am currently painting some Parthian horse archers and am wondering whether to give some of them dark blue tunics - or would they only want to wear light colours in the desert?

Tuaregs are known to use dark blue that is so dark it is almost black. They are a desert people. So I think 'light colours' is a non-desert people (i.e. us) approach to what would work in the desert.

Damn, those are good.

Going back to the Tartan does that mean 18th Century and "Napoleonic" Highlanders should not have tartan? Did they just have plain kilts or something?

It means that weren't clan tartans: there wouldn't be specific tartans, one for the MacGregors, another for the Campbells, and so on. Tartan cloth was worn but it it wouldn't be patterned according to clan. Highland regiments of the British army would have uniform regimental, rather than clan tartans. Clan tartans are supposed to be an invention of the Walter Scott inspired Romantic revival of highland costume: all traditions have to start somewhere and tartans specific to clans seem to start there. Earlier highlanders would have whatever tartan they liked or could get.