Slitherine

The Ambushing rules in FoG are interesting, but in all the games I've watched and all the BatReps I've read I've never actually seen anyone do it. Does it ever make sense? Has anyone ever tried it? Is it effective? Roughly how often does the terrain fall in a way that allows for ambushing - 50% of the time? Less?

Zephyr40k wrote:The Ambushing rules in FoG are interesting, but in all the games I've watched and all the BatReps I've read I've never actually seen anyone do it. Does it ever make sense? Has anyone ever tried it? Is it effective? Roughly how often does the terrain fall in a way that allows for ambushing - 50% of the time? Less?

I've ambushed with Cataphracts inside a (i believe) forrest twice before to good effect. When the enemy MF are 'close enough' to not be able to really move out of the way you pop out. It took me two moves to get out of the terrain, but it was rather effective. It was an unexpected turn of events.

Like everything, it depends on the situation.

I had a game recently where my opponent outflanked. It was the first time EVER someone has outflanked. It was effective. Won him the game.

You have to go in with the attitude of 'well, i CAN ambush, and how would it be effective' not I MUST ambush.

I used to ambush regularly under a different rule set.
Agreed that under FOG, the placement of terrain and troop types available in your list, often preclude the possibility. But I have still done it a number of times.
One use is to get troops further forwards at deployment on the flank that you want to push on.

It's done on occasion. The problem is unless the terrain falls just right it's no better than deploying normally. The main benefit is getting troops further forward and matched up (normally) vs LF or MF, in a part of the table that would normally have few threats for the enemy.

I've had good success doing that with 16 Immortals against LF and another time against unprotected irish MF.

I see... so it sounds like the main purpose of ambushing is to get heavy troops (HF / cataphract / etc) into terrain and using them to stomp the MF or skirmishers the enemy sends in there to seize that terrain piese. Useful, I suppose.

You can also place ambush markers to disguise the fact you have a flank march, or just to get the enemy to think a bit more as he deploys. If he thinks you may have some hard troops ready to jump out of the bushes he may move his MF to somewhere else that suits your plan better.

Zephyr40k wrote:I see... so it sounds like the main purpose of ambushing is to get heavy troops (HF / cataphract / etc) into terrain and using them to stomp the MF or skirmishers the enemy sends in there to seize that terrain piese. Useful, I suppose.

That's one possible use. If you think it's the only use, then presumably you would be perefectly happy to place your ambushing trrops on the table at time of initial deployment. After all, there;s no possible advantage to be gained from the oppon ent not knowing exactly what you have placed where, is there?

Ambushing is probably under utilized. But 75% its effects are mild.

When there was a preponderance of LH armies in V1 it was less common.

I've had a few notable successful FM.

1 I was a WOTR and put two ambush markers way in. The opponent assumed one was real and contained Longbow. He was half right the other contained billmen. My real plan was to get them up and force a fight against I think it was medieval german assuming he would deny that side of the table. But he sent two LF units up close. I forget the terrain but it was like Forest or plantation or something. He came up found the billmen, figure he could get close with the other LF, then fond the longbow. My move impact phase he rolled short, longbow rolled long. Horror ensued. Caught killed first LF, 2nd dropped due to seeing break and then in Joint Action phase that got caught short so it was frag'd. When well...you get the idea.

2 I was Carolingian. Enemy MF bow went up to plantation assuming something like LF was in there as one of the 3 ambush markers. The found 14 bases of lancer cavalry. I had deployed them there because it was a way to get onto the enemy flank faster. The enemy Bow did not slow down the plan.

But in general a single LF in ambush is really only about slowing something down and that is marginal at only 3 more MU than deployment.

It is the player with initiative that gets the potential big leap going from 12 MU in to 24 MU in with battle troops. If the terrain falls right.

For an ambush to work you need to get the terrain to fall right. Many is the time I planned for an ambush only to have the terrain end up in all the wrong places.
Flank marches can be deadly, but they can be countered too. Recently a planned flank march arrived too soon and the enemy merely wheeled to meet them. That cost me 2 of 3 BGs of cav, as my opponent had a BG of longbow and a BG of crossbow on that flank. Lucky for me, the knight fight on the other flank went my way and I was able to roll up his line from the opposite direction.

gozerius wrote:For an ambush to work you need to get the terrain to fall right. Many is the time I planned for an ambush only to have the terrain end up in all the wrong places.
Flank marches can be deadly, but they can be countered too. Recently a planned flank march arrived too soon and the enemy merely wheeled to meet them. That cost me 2 of 3 BGs of cav, as my opponent had a BG of longbow and a BG of crossbow on that flank. Lucky for me, the knight fight on the other flank went my way and I was able to roll up his line from the opposite direction.

Why didn't you just arrive on your base edge where the enemy wasn't there?

Because I wanted them to take part in the fight. Having them come on in my half would have put them in a forest which would have taken multiple turns to extract them from.

I once ambushed my brother by jumping off a wardrobe at him. That didn't work because I broke my arm!!

(I was much younger then)

Vespasian28 wrote:I once ambushed my brother by jumping off a wardrobe at him. That didn't work because I broke my arm!!

I'd like to say the same about the wife but I don't have one........................................

Rob

Zephyr40k wrote:I see... so it sounds like the main purpose of ambushing is to get heavy troops (HF / cataphract / etc) into terrain and using them to stomp the MF or skirmishers the enemy sends in there to seize that terrain piese. Useful, I suppose.

No, not really. I just think it is an underutilized use of the ambush.

You have to be careful about putting something like a Cataphract in a forest. They are dead meat there if up against medium foot unless they are completely clear of the forest... therefore they MUST come out... and you may not have planned ahead well enough. In my particular instance, I think I did.

I think the use of an ambush is to get the terrain feature OUT of the game. For instance, you move troops OUT of the feature and it is then behind them. They don't have to worry about it. They can pretend it isn't there. (if that makes sense).

I see. so, in your case, Raven, you hid the cataphracts in a forest and then revealed them before the enemy MF were in the forest. Then work the cats free of the forest forst before getting them into a fight. OK yes that does take perfect timing.

Zephyr40k wrote:I see. so, in your case, Raven, you hid the cataphracts in a forest and then revealed them before the enemy MF were in the forest. Then work the cats free of the forest forst before getting them into a fight. OK yes that does take perfect timing.

Yup. Now that I think about it, it was probably a plantation. I'm not a big user of forests (not that that means anything - my opponent could have put it there) but I WAS free within one double move which is impossible from within a forest.

The only army I have with Cataphracts is Palmyran, so it would have been these guys.

So long as you are with an opponent that can't answer to Cataphracts you should be ok doing something like that. I wouldn't do it against a longbow army for example.

One thing with ambushes, is (IMHO) to spring them, not have them sprung. There are probably situations where you just leave a BG of something pathetic hiding, but for the most part if you opponent makes you reveal the ambish, they are there one turn too long. You should have moved them out the previous tuen in your turn. Not always the case, but generally (again IMHO).

Let's say you have a BG of MF in a forest. Why let the troops march up to spitting distance of you? Reveal the BG and make him stop 6" out (for example).

ravenflight wrote:One thing with ambushes, is (IMHO) to spring them, not have them sprung. There are probably situations where you just leave a BG of something pathetic hiding, but for the most part if you opponent makes you reveal the ambish, they are there one turn too long. You should have moved them out the previous tuen in your turn. Not always the case, but generally (again IMHO).

Let's say you have a BG of MF in a forest. Why let the troops march up to spitting distance of you? Reveal the BG and make him stop 6" out (for example).

It depends on the situation though. If I have MF bowmen in ambush and the enemy comes towards it with LF I'd like the LF close before I come out so that they are in range for longer.

Or vice versa, LF in ambush out on a flank being approached by MF, you want to ensure the MF are taken away from the rest of the battle for as long as possible, so don't let him know until you absolutely have to that it is only LF that are hiding.

I'm always on the lookout to use ambushes. Ambushes are so frequently fake in our group that the one time I was able to hold back and spring one, the results were wonderful. Here's the "before" picture. The "after" is in my AAR, Onward Carthaginian Soldier.