Slitherine

Is there a full list of changes coming in 2.2? Is there a date associated with a general distribution of 2.2?
Thanks!

The silence is deafening! Anyone have info leading to a full change log of upcoming 2.2 changes?

Partial list for now.

V2.20 changes


* Added graphics images for the Slovak corps. It’s needed for some of the later scenarios.
It was omitted in the PC version.

* France surrenders if Paris is vacated after June 1940. This could cause the Allied AI
to lose France prematurely. Changed code so the check is only made if the Allied
player is not AI.


* Players got a message about Allied aggression when the Axis attacked Holland if the
Allies had earlier attacked Belgium. Now they won’t get this message



* Canadian reinforcements used to spawn when Belgium was conquered. This was intended
for the Axis attack on Belgium, but forgot the situation where the Allies attack
Belgium in September 1939. Then the Canadian reinforcements would arrive early and
not when the Allies are on the run in Belgium. This is now fixed so the Canadian
reinforcements will only arrive at the end of the Axis March 19th 1940 turn if the
Allies attacked Belgium first. If the Axis attack Belgium first the Canadian
reinforcements will arrive when Belgium surrenders as before.


* The game would show a chance for Italian early activation if Belgium was attacked,
but not conquered. This message will only show if there aren’t enough Allied naval
units in the Mediterranean and Belgium is conquered.


* Rail gauge conversion could happen between friendly countries like Persian standard
gauge rail being converted into Russia. This is now fixed so Allied controlled
standard gauge rail heads can’t convert rail into Russian controlled broad gauge
hexes and vice versa unless Russia is conquered.

* Fixed a bug regarding Russian rail head movement.

* Increased the number of rail depots / cities needed in Finland / Estonia from 2 to 3
so Finland would never ask for armistice unless Russian troops have captured at least
one city / rail depot in core Finland. Change is done because rail depot of Tartu
in Estonia was added before and number of cities was not increased because of the
addition. This is now fixed

* Let the UK southern lend lease route be stopped if London is Axis controlled. Then the
15 PP's will be kept by the UK and not sent to Russia. UK would not be in a position
to support other major powers with lend lease if they have barely enough PP's to stay
above 0 (without convoys).

* Make sure that Free French forces won't be placed on the map as units that can't move
if Vichy France is DoW'ed when USA is still neutral (controlling power of the Free
French). Instead these Free French units go to the US force pool so they can be
safely placed once USA join the war.

* Fixed a vanilla game bug regarding supply level 5 flowing through the Gibraltar port
into Africa. Other rules prevented supply level 4-5 in French North Africa and Libya,
but not Egypt. So Germany could suddenly get rail supply in Egypt if they had a
contiguous like from Egypt to Gibraltar.

* Changed terrain around Tobruk and Mareth to allow better movement around those hexes.

*Changed terrain in Iran, Iraq, and Turkey. Moved border lines between Persia, Iraq,
Russia, and Turkey to correct some deficiencies. Added river Karun in Persia. Yerevan
was added as a Rail Depot in Russia on border with Turkey and Persia.

* Altered terrain in UK. Added forest and clear hexes. Glasgow was moved 1 hex. Clydebank
was added as name for the Glasgow port. Devonport was added as name for the
Plymouth port. These were 2 of the main naval bases in UK during ww2.


* In the event of Sealion, UK forces in Egypt, Iran will fully activate to be available
for the defense of Britain. Italy will also activate. If Sealion occurs in 1939 or
1940, once Axis forces land anywhere in Britain, 2 GAR will form in the forcepool.
If Sealion occurs in 1941 4 GARs will be available for defense of Britain.

* When German forces land in Libya, UK forces in Egypt and Iraq will activate.

* Added rail depot in France called Calais. This will later become a fortress as
one of the Atlantic wall fortresses.

* Updated message system at start of turn to provide historical images from the war and
more space to explain the various events from Combat operations, Political events,
and Surrender of nations.



* Updated the begin turn weather information dialog box to show the weather zones and
how they affect land and Sea areas



* Added weather overlay that can be displayed over the map in game. Can be toggled
on or off by pressing the letter 'w'. Default can be set in game options.



* Changed retreat rules. Air units will always retreat. Naval units may now retreat
during combat. Subs and convoys start with 0, BB's, CV's start with 10, DD's with 20,
Transports with 30. For each step loss below 10 on the defender the chance goes up
by 5, the retreat chance may go down by 5 for each step loss below 10 on the attacker.
Defenders will not retreat from ports.

Battle example. A UK 9 step BB attacks an 8 step Italian DD. Combat result is 3:1
so the BB has 8 steps and the DD 5 steps after battle.
Base retreat chance is 20% (destroyer). Modifier for defender = 5*(10-5) = 25%.
Modifier for attacker is 5*(10-8) = 10%. So end change = 20% + 25% - 10% = 35%.


* Convoys will start to retreat if the value falls below 10.


Naval combat expanded.

* New ASW rules.

a) Surface vessels after movement may perform an ASW sweep to look for hidden subs.
b) ASW sweeps that are successful will attack the first sub revealed and reveal any
other hexes that were swept.
c) The hex clicked on has 2x base probability depending on unit performing the sweep.
d) Base Probability - Convoys and subs is 0 (ie can not sweep), Transports 15,
BB's 35, DD's and CV's 50 . Sweep chance is raised by 10 (ASW) and 5 (Radar)
for each level. Sweep chance is lowered by 10 by Rough Seas and by 10 for each
enemy sub level.
f) Player may press 'm' to have units remain in hex and perform sweep instead of
moving or attacking. Once 'm' is pressed you are committed to perform a sweep
or not. You can not change your decision.
g) If a surface unit stops movement on top of an enemy sub on Sentry 'Zzz' the enemy
sub will be moved to the nearest empty hex. The surface unit may then perform an
ASW sweep.


* New Sub rules.

a) Subs that are hidden will stop attack any enemy vessel that runs into the
enemy sub hex.
b) Subs that attempt to move into an opposing sub hex will be bounced as before.
This behavior is the same as earlier version of CEAW-GS.
c) Subs may be placed on Sentry 'Zzz' by pressing the letter 'z' or 's'.
d) Subs on Sentry 'Zzz' will allow any surface vessels to travel over the hex.
Enemy ships will not be stopped or attacked.
e) Subs that are revealed by ASW sweep / attack and or attacked may evade the attack
with no losses.
f) Subs that attack or were ran into will not evade counter attacks.
g) Sub evade base probability - BB's & FTR's - 75, TAC's - 60, CV's, DD's, SB'a - 50 .
Evade chance is raised by 10 for Rough Seas and each sub tech level.
Evade chance is lowered by 10 for each enemy ASW and 5 for each radar tech level.


* Player may toggle sub units on sentry 'Zzz' after movement by using Right-click.

* Subs that use the swap function will be invisible after the swap.

* Units railed can be placed on sentry 'Zzz' by using Right-click.

* When Turkey is invaded by Axis forces, Russia will go on a war footing once an Axis unit
enters Turkey.

* Added some changes to technology. Subs get +1 anti aircraft at submarine tech 2 and 6
and DD, BB + transport get +1 anti aircraft at surface ships tech 5.

* Italy will receive extra production while neutral or Port Said is captured by Axis.
The extra production is set to 4 PP's and is modified by war effort.

Looks excellent, although I think that Italy should gain bonus efficiency when Port Said is controlled by the Axis.

Italian units will get +5 max morale boost when Port Said is Axis controlled. They get another +5 morale boost if Athens in Axis controlled.

The map is changed in Egypt so we have more room in the Red Sea. That allowed for adding the Suez port.

The map is changed in the Persia Gulf. More sea hexes are added. Basra is moved more inland to the Euphrates river. Kuwait is added with a port to make the map more accurate. Kuwait was a British protectorate ala Trans-Jordan / Egypt. It was not a part of Iraq.

Transport loops are moved slightly several places to use the new space in the Red Sea and Persian Gulf. Transport loops also moved near the Canary Islands to keep them in open sea rather than close to land. That means it's harder to block them.

Great. v.2.2 really shaping up nicely. I like how you are making naval warfare more crucial, as it was a primary concern for the Allies IRL.

I hate to keep bringing this up, but under these new sub rules as written, British BBs and CVs in the Atlantic will essentially be doomed to sit in port from the years 39-41.

Let me see if I can make my point using math. Let's take a hypothetical example of a heavily escorted British CV spotted in the Atlantic, with 3 DD's adjacent to it in a standard "triangle" formation. Then lets have the CV attacked in wolfpack fashion by 3 German subs.

Let's assume each sub manages to get a 2-1 on the carrier (a VERY conservative assumption, especially as it does not take into account efficiency hits on the CV making the later sequenced attacks on it more deadly). So, round one would yield 6 hits on the CV, and 3 hits on the subs. So, the PP score at this point would be 6x8=48 inflicted on the British, and 3x4=12 on the Germans.

On to round two, the British turn when they get to hit back. Let's assume each DD attack on a sub will average a 4-1 result (which I think is reasonable). Let's further assume the CV decides to stay and fight as well (although I doubt many Allied players would leave a strength 4 CV at sea in this situation, so this is being very generous) and gets an average 1-0 result on the sub. So, there would be 3 DD hits and 13 subs hits on average, which would make the round 2 PP score 3x4=12 for the British, and 13x4=52 for the Germans.

So, under the current rules, the total expected PP losses for these two rounds of combat would be 48+12=60 for the British, and 12+52=64 for the Germans. So, under the current rules, 3 destroyer flotillas are BARELY an adequate escort for the British CV, in the early war period.

But add in this new sub dodging rule ... forget about it. I know I'm oversimplifying the math a little here, but to factor this new dodging rule in lets say the round 2 PP losses, in which the subs have a 50% to dodge their way out of combat, for each side are halved. So, attacking the heavily escorted British CV will ALWAYS be a winning move for the subs, with expected PP losses of 48+6=52 for the British, and 12+26=38 for the Germans.

Thus to properly escort the British CV from wolfpack attacks under the new sub rules in this hypothetical, you'd need at least 4 destroyer flotillas escorts travelling with it wherever it goes. Which is absurd, IMO.

Running the numbers for the British BB instead of the CV in the middle of the triangle yields similar results (although not as bad since the BB is cheaper). Using the same assumptions as above (except no attack by the BB on the sub in round 2, which would obviously be unwise), after two rounds under the current rules we should see 6 BB hits, 3 DD hits, and 15 sub hits. And since a BB costs 5.6 PP per hit, we should get an average PP loss of 45.6 for the British, and 60 for the Germans.

Allow sub dodging, and score changes to 39.6 PP lost on average to the British, and 36 PP for the Germans. Versus a heavily escorted BB.

Obviously, if sub dodging is added, something has to be done to nerf subs vs capital ships. I'd suggest banning attacks by subs vs capital ships on the sub players turn unless it begins the turn adjacent (ie, making the current rule protecting subs in this manner fully reciprocal). I like this solution, because these wolfpack attacks on capital ships never happened IRL (even the slowest BB was faster than subs on the surface, making shadowing/wolfpacking vs them physically impossible).

And yes, I realize there is a consensus of opinion that there is a balance problem in this game in favor of the Allies. But there must be a better way to deal with this situation than to let the problem outlined above go unaddressed.

I like this solution, because these wolfpack attacks on capital ships never happened IRL

You realise that IRL subs sunk several capital ships, both BBs and CVs, right? Also, note that in-game a BB is not a single ship, but an entire fleet, probably a SAG, and when a sub unit attacks, it doesn't have to mean that ALL subs are attacking. Use your imagination here.

However, I think that your main point, i.e. that it may force the RN to sit in ports in 1939-1941, is quite valid. That's why these changes need to be tested.

I realize that. Those cases were where a lone U-boat happened to be in the right place at the right time. Ie, the current system of sub ambushing. I didn't bring that up in my post above, but yes, I now think sub ambushing is fine as is. It's important to give the RN at least something to be worried and paranoid about.

Well, one way of balancing this would be to make evasion heavily based on tech. The base chance could be low in such case, but the Allies would need to focus on two techs (ASW and Radar) in order to counter the German sub tech increase. Subs wouldn't be so overwhelming in 1939-1940, but if you didn't focus on naval techs and units enough, you would suffer the consequences in 1941-1943... I think that this is sth that the devs are aiming for, right? To make the mid-war period a bit harder for the Allies.

Example: Sub evade base probability - BB's & FTR's - 50, TAC's - 35, CV's, DD's, SB'a - 25
Evade chance is raised by 15 for Rough Seas and each sub tech level.
Evade chance is lowered by 10 for each enemy ASW and 5 for each radar tech level.

Excuse for me poor English ! Would someone explain the following sentence in GS 2.2 :

c) The hex clicked on has 2x base probability depending on unit performing the sweep.

Thank you !

Hi,
I will try.Depending upon the type of surface unit the surface unit will perform a search
on all available vacant hexes. The first hex selected by the player and clicked will search
that hex at 2 times their base probability. The other hexes searched will search using the base probability.

See here -

One thing that we could do keeping in mind the harder-to-kill properties that the sub units will have in 2.2 is to consider an increase in the cost per unit to 60 PP´s (as it was in vanilla game). IMO, doing this would make more costly for the axis player to follow a massive building subs strategy (e.g. 10-12 sub units) in a game and it could bring some equilibria if the new rules favouring the subs survivability (evade chance, no DD´s running into subs, etc) unbalance at some extent the battle in the Atlantic. Increased cost means also increased repair cost and less profitability for the axis player to make the kind of attacks pointed by @jimwinsor above.

pk867 wrote:Hi,
I will try.Depending upon the type of surface unit the surface unit will perform a search
on all available vacant hexes. The first hex selected by the player and clicked will search
that hex at 2 times their base probability. The other hexes searched will search using the base probability.

See here -

Does it mean if there is a sub, when the DD attack it ,it has double base probability to hit it . If there is not a sub , means nothing ?

It is search probability. Which means the base probability for a DD (Current value being tested) is 50. So a DD has a 50% chance to find a hidden sub
in a hex. The hex you choose as a player to start the search (the example shows 6 available hexes to search) that hex will have 2 times the base probability.

example : in the previous image the hex marked with a red hex is where I wanted to start my search that hex would have a 100% (base 50 x 2) chance searching that hex for a sub.

the remaining hexes would be at 50%. If no sub if revealed a message is displayed in the hex North of the unit which displays "No Contact".

If a sub is revealed (now visible) because of the search combat will start. The sub will try to get away. If successful a message will be displayed on top of the sub displaying "Evade"

and will receive no damage. If the sub did not 'Evade', combat will ensue normally.

The chances are increased or decreased depending upon tech for naval unit searching (Cat) and the sub (Mouse) and the weather.

Only the first sub revealed will be attacked. If additional subs are revealed they are not attacked, but are now visible.

pk867 wrote:It is search probability. Which means the base probability for a DD (Current value being tested) is 50. So a DD has a 50% chance to find a hidden sub
in a hex. The hex you choose as a player to start the search (the example shows 6 available hexes to search) that hex will have 2 times the base probability.

example : in the previous image the hex marked with a red hex is where I wanted to start my search that hex would have a 100% (base 50 x 2) chance searching that hex for a sub.

the remaining hexes would be at 50%. If no sub if revealed a message is displayed in the hex North of the unit which displays "No Contact".

If a sub is revealed (now visible) because of the search combat will start. The sub will try to get away. If successful a message will be displayed on top of the sub displaying "Evade"

and will receive no damage. If the sub did not 'Evade', combat will ensue normally.

The chances are increased or decreased depending upon tech for naval unit searching (Cat) and the sub (Mouse) and the weather.

Only the first sub revealed will be attacked. If additional subs are revealed they are not attacked, but are now visible.

Get it ! Thank you !

BTW wouldn't it be better to make 2.2 open beta? I think that you would get more feedback quicker that way.

Not yet, if at all. When we did that last time it delayed the game 7 months with too many people. Then it got delayed because of other game priorities that were already in the pipeline. This is basically a bug fix, and closing old political loopholes.

We are trying out some much needed naval updates. Basically this is through hotseat looking at mechanics.

pk867 wrote:It is search probability. Which means the base probability for a DD (Current value being tested) is 50. So a DD has a 50% chance to find a hidden sub
in a hex. The hex you choose as a player to start the search (the example shows 6 available hexes to search) that hex will have 2 times the base probability.

example : in the previous image the hex marked with a red hex is where I wanted to start my search that hex would have a 100% (base 50 x 2) chance searching that hex for a sub.

the remaining hexes would be at 50%. If no sub if revealed a message is displayed in the hex North of the unit which displays "No Contact".

If a sub is revealed (now visible) because of the search combat will start. The sub will try to get away. If successful a message will be displayed on top of the sub displaying "Evade"

and will receive no damage. If the sub did not 'Evade', combat will ensue normally.

The chances are increased or decreased depending upon tech for naval unit searching (Cat) and the sub (Mouse) and the weather.

Only the first sub revealed will be attacked. If additional subs are revealed they are not attacked, but are now visible.

Hi Paul :

One more question : If a DD just stop in a hex of a ZZZ sub , will the DD sweep out the sub ? or sweep out nothing ?

The sub will be bumped, and undetected. If the DD then sweeps the sub will have the normal chance of being detected; and of evading the subsequent attack.