Slitherine

As far as I can see the only differences between defensive and offensive spearmen are:

Pikemen or Offensive Spearmen if Charging Foot or Non-Shock Mounted and Defensive Spearmen if Charging Defensive Spearmen get a plus in impact - So there is a single POA if offensive spearmen charge foot or non-shock mounted (who are extremely likely to evade - and if not deserve everything they get)

Defensive Spearmen don't have to charge (i.e. are not impetuous), which is a slight bonus for the Defensive Spearmen.

For these there is a whole point difference in cost.

Seems a bit skew whiff to me.

If you use Defensive Spearmen you will find that there are many occasions when you would like to charge, but will lose a POA (relative to offensive spears) if you do, yet you cannot rely on the enemy being forced to charge you. (e.g. Vs Enemy MF archers, heavy weapon men, javelin and sword men, bow armed cavalry, light spear armed cavalry, light chariots, elephants etc.)

Fair enough, there are other occasions with Offensive Spearmen when you would prefer not to charge but are obliged to do so. However, this should not happen often if you are playing well. (I make no claim to be able to play well myself).

I think the Point difference is certainly justified, but that Defensive Spears are a cost-effective option if used appropriately.

So there is a single POA if offensive spearmen charge foot or non-shock mounted (who are extremely likely to evade - and if not deserve everything they get)

Absolutely, and if you are (protected) Defensive Spears they don't need to evade and can just shoot you to death or defeat you in close combat (armour, superior, possibly light spear) if you charge them.

If defensive spears are better value than Offensive Spearmen, why aren't the competition winning armies full of them? (Now there's a challenge).

Which army at Britcon had the most Defensive Spears? Where did it rank in the final scores?

I must admit that my scotsmen would an unplayable army with defensive spearmen...
That 's the reason why I'm much reluctant to play one of my favourite army : the picts !

Jerome

Pikeaddict wrote:I must admit that my scotsmen would an unplayable army with defensive spearmen...
That 's the reason why I'm much reluctant to play one of my favourite army : the picts !

Jerome

Fear not, the Picts are now Offensive Spearmen.

Fair enough, there are other occasions with Offensive Spearmen when you would prefer not to charge but are obliged to do so

Really? when? The only time you don't want to charge is against Shock Mounted - and you are not forced to in this case!

Against bowmen you are almost certainly going to be evens in impact and + (if not ++) in melee - which is much better than being shot at! Since Swordsmen does not count against steady spearmen it is a moot point so it normally doesn't matter if you charge or not.

Bow armed cavalry will always evade - otherwise you will slaughter them. If you are using Armoured Cavalry against Protected Spearmen the cavalry will still lose. They should really be forced to break off and then the casualtys will nail them eventually.

The only real time you want the + in impact is against Heavy Weapons, which IMO does not equate to a full point!

If defensive spears are better value than Offensive Spearmen, why aren't the competition winning armies full of them? (Now there's a challenge).

I was posting this after my offensive spearmen got duffed up by defensive spearmen twice at Britcon - I had no advantage at all. I was forced to charge - because if I didn't I would fail a CMT somewhere and go in piecemeal and since I was charging the factors were identical.

I think the Point difference is certainly justified, but that Defensive Spears are a cost-effective option if used appropriately

Absolutely, I think Defensive Spearmen are actually much better value for money - especially when they are armoured - or even Heavily Armoured!

I understand that you have probably run through bucketfulls of tests with this, but you wanted my opinion so you have got it!

dave_r wrote:I understand that you have probably run through bucketfulls of tests with this, but you wanted my opinion so you have got it!

And much appreciated it is too.

dave_r wrote:

Fair enough, there are other occasions with Offensive Spearmen when you would prefer not to charge but are obliged to do so

Really? when?

When you would rather wait for some of your other troops to catch up. (Hang on, I was agreeing with you at this point, why are you arguing against me agreeing with you?)

Against bowmen you are almost certainly going to be evens in impact and + (if not ++) in melee - which is much better than being shot at! Since Swordsmen does not count against steady spearmen it is a moot point so it normally doesn't matter if you charge or not.

It is true that you may still win. However, at even POAs at impact, with the bowmen getting support shooting dice, on balance you will lose the impact combat. If, as a result, you become disrupted things are not as rosy. Offensive spearmen would be better.

Bow armed cavalry will always evade - otherwise you will slaughter them. If you are using Armoured Cavalry against Protected Spearmen the cavalry will still lose. They should really be forced to break off and then the casualtys will nail them eventually.

You cannot always rely on the enemy attacking you with equal points worth of troops at the point of decision - especially when his troops are more mobile.

If defensive spears are better value than Offensive Spearmen, why aren't the competition winning armies full of them? (Now there's a challenge).

I was posting this after my offensive spearmen got duffed up by defensive spearmen twice at Britcon - I had no advantage at all. I was forced to charge - because if I didn't I would fail a CMT somewhere and go in piecemeal and since I was charging the factors were identical.

I agree, Defensive Spears are good value against shock troops, but less so against anything else. You pay the extra point for your advantage against other things, not for any direct advantage against Defensive Spears.

The problem with defensive spearmen charging against bowmen or cavalry is precisely that you have no POA advantage. It's an even fight and if you lose it and fail the CMT you are then no longer steady which means swordsmen get a + POA. And then, depending on armour differences you have another even fight on your hands except you now lose 1 out of 3 dice...Offensive spearmen are much less likely to get into this sort of predicament.

That may not seem a lot but I think it can make quite a difference and for 1 point a base, I reckon it's a worthwile investment.

Regards,

Julian

Cutting through to value for money I return to my view that troops are worth the points if you buy them to do the right thing overall in an army

Thus

If I design and army with 3 BGs of defensive foot I intend to us this way to support an offensive rest of army they are decent value.

If I design and army with defensive foot to lead the charge as a primary offensive troops type they are not good value I find as they get exposed and they don't have the certainty of being able to press the attack. The only def ft that are cheap are the UnDr, Prot versions and thes are not easy to manouvre and make work as an attacking force.

The while point of defensive foot is they were not organised to win offensive battles but to be a solid block around which other troop did exactly that.

From this point of view I personally find the balance good and that I want UnDr Def Sp sometimes but other times their inexpensive price tempts one into a liability fo desing and masterplan

Si

The while point of defensive foot is they were not organised to win offensive battles but to be a solid block around which other troop did exactly that.

I completely agree with this statement, as you say each troop has it's own uses - that they do kind of suggests they are difficult to compare, as they each have value - which would suggest to me they should be the same points cost

Incidentally, what are Anglo-Norman spearmen going to be? I would guess defensive spearmen?

dave_r wrote:Incidentally, what are Anglo-Norman spearmen going to be? I would guess defensive spearmen?

Haven't given it a lot of thought yet, but I would think so, yes.

The Saxon fyrd will be Offensive Spears - probably Average for the select fyrd and Poor for the general fyrd.

The general theory is that as a general rule if knights/cavalry are the main offensive arm, spears are Defensive, whereas if the spears themselves are the main arm, they must ipso facto be Offensive. There may, of course, be exceptions.