Slitherine

What sort of bills do gamers mostly use in Early Henrician lists (Flodden and all that)? I mean for the retinue or MAA, not the better levies, which are fixed.

Armoured or heavily armoured? And would you consider men in "Alymaine Rivet" (German-produced 3/4 plate) and close helmet to be Armoured or Heavily Armoured? Or is Heavily Armoured limited to full armour suit on foot (like men at arms in complete armour other than boots for dismounted service)?

Have not made my mind up yet - not completed rebasing my Mike Models English Tudor from Tercio. As for Alymaine Rivet, that almost exactly is what the authors describe for HA foot 'foot, ... with plate armour for head and thorax and thighs... or with additional metallic protection'.

Honestly? I'd love a variety. If I'm building a brand new army with tons of billmen, then I'd just get several and separate them appropriately. Otherwise, I would try to mix them as much as possible.

Thanks -- I've got a line of early Henricians in production now and so far I have:

1) twelve poses of longbowmen in the white coat
2) four poses of levy bills in old fashioned clothing and light armour
3) four poses retinue bills in more fashionable clothing and medium armour
4) four poses of bills in the white coat with medium armour
5) Yeomen of the Guard or elite retinue billmen in alymaine rivet, maximilian close helmets with German halberds
6) Prickers/light lancers in light armour

All the billmen have the "black bill," which was rather short at 5-6 feet long, as described by period writers. Considered making the Yeomen in the famous tudor cap as they are shown, but in battle it's almost assured they would have worn very complete protection for their noggins!

Currently being made are the demilancers. They will be followed by infantry command and generals (Henry, a generic officer, a standard and a cornet).

After that will be made Burgundians and a serpentine with crew. Then some dismounted men at arms with poleaxe or halberd.

My Swiss will also be modified to make Landsknechts (removing the longsword and schweizerdolch and replacing them with the katzbalger, removing the cross slashing and replacing with X slashing, removing many of the ostrich feathers, and perhaps some other cosmetic changes).

The longbowmen in white coats are almost ready to be released, and the four sets of billmen, and prickers/border horse, are not far behind.

Of course these are being made for the 500th anniversary of Flodden, the largest battle ever fought between the kingdoms of Scotland and England, as well as the 1513 campaign which is best known for the overhyped "Battle" of the Spurs!

Stay tuned for details. Should have painted longbowmen on display in a few weeks.

Mind you Scot's figures for the battle would be nice too!!!
John

marshalney2000 wrote:Mind you Scot's figures for the battle would be nice too!!!
John

Agree, but wouldn't many of the Scots be using the same equipment as the English?, only replacing the bill with a pike /long spear.

I think the equipment would becquite different in that the Front Rank nobles with pikes would be in pseudo Milanese armour copied in a Scottish factory as well as the real stuff while the rear ranks would have padded jacks with a mix of helmets of many styles, scotttish bonnets etc and a scarf around the neck. There are also the highlanders to consider with some in mail shirts and others just in shirts.
The borderers would I accept be identical but that is pretty much it.
John

marshalney2000 wrote:Mind you Scot's figures for the battle would be nice too!!!
John

One army at a time ....

marshalney2000 wrote:I think the equipment would becquite different in that the Front Rank nobles with pikes would be in pseudo Milanese armour copied in a Scottish factory as well as the real stuff

Interesting because Heath shows Scottish nobles fighting as pikemen in fairly antique (at least by early 16th century standards) armour and carrying pavises in his book on the 16th century.

The nobles certainly carry the PA use as shown in the Heath illustration but to me the armour shown is from an earlier period. In the text relating to the drawing he makes mention of James importing armourers from abroad to improve the armour and modernise it. This factory is described as producing armour in the latest Milanese styles. His lesser armed pikemen to me look right although figure 46 would be more common than the fancy trousers of 47. It must be borne in mind that the Flodden army represented every social strata of Scottish culture so quality and brightness of closing would be very varied.
John

Yes, the armour is from an earlier period to Heath too. He points out that the armour worn by the Scots nobles on foot was mostly old fashioned. I would imagine that's why he depicted them all in 15th century plate! Perhaps the few mounted nobles would be the ones in more modern armour.

Unfortunately his depiction of unarmoured Scots pikemen is from Pinkie IIRC. I wish he had shown a few of the rank and file Scots pikemen from Flodden.

In any event, one army at a time! The sculptor is very busy with other projects as well and it may be a while before all the Henrician codes are out. Next up are the Demilancers and infantry command. Even after that there's a fair amount to have made -- Burgundian horse, mounted command, and a cannon and some crew. True men-at-arms on foot as well. I would like to make gentlemen pensioners, but considering the tiny numbers they are allowed that might not be practical.

I think I'll be releasing the Bows and Bills first, perhaps in a month or two, depending on when I get the castings of the bills and a fix on one of the archers.

I suspect in reality there would have been a real mixture of armour with the poorer countrified gentry digging out granddads gear while the King and more affluent nobles would have the latest imported styles. Re the common men I think Mr Heath' depiction without the slashed trousers would be pretty accurate.
John