Slitherine

ehy do you get a + for charging ft and non-shock mtd and not mtd

Do you mean why don't pike get a plus for 3 ranks when charging shock mounted?

yes i didn't spell it very well

Because foot lose formation when charging, which is a big downer against mounted countercharging. Not so much of a downer against other foot who would normally counter charge anyway

though countercharges are not depicted in the game they are just assumed to happen at close quarters by those that would.

Shock mounted are lancers, heavy chariots and scythed chariots. They got a lot of their effect by the momentum in the charge, which needs weight and speed. They're trying to use that momentum to damage the enemy foot, either by skewering them (lance), cutting them (scythes) or knocking them over with the horses.

Troops armed with long spears or pikes had special drills to deal with mounted. Essentially, aim the long pointy thing at the horse and physically brace it (usually by planting the butt in the ground and using the men to hold it steady). The idea being that if the horse slows down to avoid the point you've spoiled their mometum. If not, the horse may be impaled, using the momentum against it.

The problem with this drill is it can only really be done when stationary. So the loss of the POA when charging reflects this. In essence, the theory is that the foot would form up the receive the charge, and that the shock troops would eventually lose control and charge in.

I recall (in the context of Napoleonic squares) the general view from horse trainers that you can not make a horse barge into a wall of bristling pointy sticks. I guess in ancient & medieval times armoured horses could be trained to do so. Maybe these should be less disadvantaged against 4 ranks of pike.

zoltan wrote:I recall (in the context of Napoleonic squares) the general view from horse trainers that you can not make a horse barge into a wall of bristling pointy sticks. I guess in ancient & medieval times armoured horses could be trained to do so. Maybe these should be less disadvantaged against 4 ranks of pike.

Why? Where is your historical evidence of knights beating steady deep pike formations?

rbodleyscott wrote:

zoltan wrote:I recall (in the context of Napoleonic squares) the general view from horse trainers that you can not make a horse barge into a wall of bristling pointy sticks. I guess in ancient & medieval times armoured horses could be trained to do so. Maybe these should be less disadvantaged against 4 ranks of pike.

Why? Where is your historical evidence of knights beating steady deep pike formations?

I don't have any evidence I was simply musing. I'm happy with the RAW making no differentiation between the range of mounted troop types' effectiveness against pike at impact.

Any mounted vs pike was bad news for the horses, thats why pike amies when beaten was usually the flanks caved in and that allowed the mounted at the side \/rear of the pike blocks, the battle as a battle was usually over by then.

cheers

rbodleyscott wrote:

zoltan wrote:I recall (in the context of Napoleonic squares) the general view from horse trainers that you can not make a horse barge into a wall of bristling pointy sticks. I guess in ancient & medieval times armoured horses could be trained to do so. Maybe these should be less disadvantaged against 4 ranks of pike.

Why? Where is your historical evidence of knights beating steady deep pike formations?

French v low countries. Admittedly, you refer to these as o/s rather than pike, but others dont

dave_r wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote:

zoltan wrote:I recall (in the context of Napoleonic squares) the general view from horse trainers that you can not make a horse barge into a wall of bristling pointy sticks. I guess in ancient & medieval times armoured horses could be trained to do so. Maybe these should be less disadvantaged against 4 ranks of pike.

Why? Where is your historical evidence of knights beating steady deep pike formations?

French v low countries. Admittedly, you refer to these as o/s rather than pike, but others dont

Well the other thing to remember that is wrapped into the dice is, the morale and organization of the units fighting. A knight charge in the game that rolls lucky vs pikes that roll bad and frag's the pike on impact is likely the case that some files of pike panicked/not ready/looked the wrong way/slipped on a bannana/unforesen ground/etc. So at the man-to-man level there is an explanation that incoroprates the extraordinary factors. but at the game level it is all top down from POAs.