Slitherine

When you charge an ennemy unit coming from an angle . You hit one front base and with the front corner of a second base, the rear base of the ennemy unit .

If it does not have all the conditions for a flank attack, it is a frontal assault . But what POA ? What I mean is if you hit a defensive speaman , and a second defensive spearman that is right behind the first ...it is considered a frontal assault but do we consider the defensive speamen as being in 2 ranks and so with full benefit of the spear POA or each unit with only one rank and so nos POA ?

The question is asled because afterwards, the attacking unit has to confirm frontally ..and so is no more in contact with the second rank ...the same question will arise if the second rank is bow or Xbow while the front rank is speamen or other ...the POA's are not the same ...

It is treated as a front base in all ways.

So the second base is considered front and the "first front base" will get no support from the "rear rank" which fights as front base with no ...support..as often they will have nobody behind them

No...you fight it just like you had hit 2 files of 2 bases head on.

Gino
SMAC

Unfortunately, my ideas about treating all non-flank-charging contacts on a non-front rank base as having contacted the front rank base, thus treating the entire file as a single combat unit, never got traction, In spite of the wording in the RAW that only front rank bases fight in the Impact Phase. I believe that the conventional wisdom, based on the RAW that all bases contacted are eligible to fight is that all non front rank bases contacted fight with the same POAs and dice (emphasis mine) as if they were a front rank base equivalent to the actual front rank base. This leads to the rather obscene result that a second rank shooter will fight as if a front rank base and support shoot for itself!???! In the situation you describe, the second rank fights with the same POAs as the front rank. There is no cutting of support for defensive or offensive spears, pike, etc.

Interesting . Not that long ago, in a tournament it was ruled that if you did hit the 3rd rank of a phalanx - but not as a flank charge - it would be + POA for the phalanx as it would have only 2 ranks fighting ...We stand correted sir !

It should be full poa ..

A far better resolution would be to count flank contacts on non-front rank bases as contacting the front rank base of the file in question, rather than treating it as contacting a new file. Then it wouldn't matter where on the flank the charge contacted, only the front rank would be eligible to fight. After all, just a few pages later the authors declare that base depths are exaggerated and all ranks would fit in the space of the first base. IMHO, non-front rank bases should only be eligible to fight when contacted by a legal flank charge. This would simplify support shooting and eliminate double dipping. It would also be in keeping with what happens when a BG must then conform after such a contact.

The only downside I can see to the idea above is less carnage at impact

philqw78 wrote:The only downside I can see to the idea above is less carnage at impact

Given that one of the improvements in V2 is to make impact a bit more important and possibly decisive than it was versus melee in V1, I don't see a change that would counteract that and make it easier to impact on a limited frontage as being an improvement.

Chris

While I agree that the changes made to the Impact combat make things more decisive, I still don't believe that normal charges should not get the benefit of extra files in combat just because they contact the side of the enemy. This only has the effect of forcing the contacted file to fight twice, a violation of the principle that each base should only fight one enemy base.

I still don't believe that normal charges should not get the benefit of extra files in combat just because they contact the side of the enemy. This only has the effect of forcing the contacted file to fight twice, a violation of the principle that each base should only fight one enemy base

But it does not fight twice . If the initial charge contacts the front base and a rear rank base - but is not a flank charge - my understanding is that it is a frontal charge with 2 bases contacting 2 bases all with full POA as if frontal charge .So 4 dice each

bahdahbum wrote:But it does not fight twice . If the initial charge contacts the front base and a rear rank base - but is not a flank charge - my understanding is that it is a frontal charge with 2 bases contacting 2 bases all with full POA as if frontal charge .So 4 dice each

But if it is a rear rank of shooters it gets to shoot twice. Though for game purposes it should. Other wise people will try and engineer lots of twisty turny arsey charges into bow

No rule can be perfect

The rule generally has the right effect in minimizing the incentive to try to gain an advantage from angling a charge when the charger doesn't have a legitimate flank charge. And I haven't seen any real problems due to this other than at the low level it may look a little odd in how it is implemented. Overall it has the right effect and works in the way that the FoG top down design philosophy intends.

Chris

Just to help me with the understanding of this as some of the answers above have added to the confusion

Version 2 of the rules,

A 4 deep pike block gets hit from front, on an angle and charger steps forward and also hits the 3rd rank of the pike as well.

Does the attacker roll 2 dice or 4, as its only 1 file of pike hit (even thou same file hit twice)?

Same questions for pike, 2 dice or 4, and at what poa, do they count 4 ranks deep or 2 lots of 2 ranks, or 2 lots of 4 ranks since its the same file hit twice? I am thinking only 2 dice as the "impact dice chart" says 2d per front rank base or does the 3rd rank count as front rank for this as well?

I dont know, even after reading the rule sections a couple times to work it out. The rules suggest to me that yes the 2 attacking bases fight, but I cant work out the number of defenders since its 1st and 3rd ranks that got hit.

The only think i have worked out is that in maneuver phase, the attacker squares up with the pike, with the base that hit the 3rd rank now fights as overlap.

Can people that step us through this, include which rule sections that apply as well so we can also read/follow through them with your answer.

cheers

The current understanding of "treated as contacting the enemy front" is that each base contacted fights as if a front rank base of the file it is a part of. Thus, each contacted base fights with the same POAs and shooting support as the front rank of the file it belongs to.
In the following examples the file consists of 2 bases of Defensive Spear and 1 LF bow.
Example 1: Chargers contact the front corner of the front rank base only - the front rank base gets two dice with a + for the second rank of spear and 1 dice of support shooting.
Example 2: Chargers contact the side edge of the front rank - same as above
Example 3: Chargers contact the side edge of the second rank - treated the same as above
Example 4: Chargers contact the side edge of the third rank - treated the same as above
Example 5: Chargers contact the front and side of the front rank base - the front rank base gets two dice with a + for the second rank of spear and 1 dice of support shooting against one of the enemy bases, the second enemy base does not fight.
Example 6: Chargers contact the front corner of the front rank base and the side edge of either of the other bases - each defending base in contact will dice as for example 1 above, losing 1 support shooting die per 2. Both enemy bases will fight.

I hope that makes it clear.

I also hope that my alternative suggestion on what "treated as contacting the enemy front" should mean is apparent. For those who are confused, example 6 should be treated exactly as example 5.

philqw78 wrote:

bahdahbum wrote:But it does not fight twice . If the initial charge contacts the front base and a rear rank base - but is not a flank charge - my understanding is that it is a frontal charge with 2 bases contacting 2 bases all with full POA as if frontal charge .So 4 dice each

But if it is a rear rank of shooters it gets to shoot twice. Though for game purposes it should. Other wise people will try and engineer lots of twisty turny arsey charges into bow

Serves the bow right for leaving their flanks flapping in the wind. Dave and I had this discussion at the TT. IIR (rules not in front of me right now) the RAW is pretty clear that you only get support shooting from a base behind the one in contact. The language about a flank contact being treated as against the front rank only pertains to POAs, i.e. pikes, spears, etc. This means that while the contacted rear rank shooter could support shoot in the impact where the base in front of it is fighting, it cannot support-shoot in the impact where it is itself the front rank base, as it is not "behind itself."

Of course, Dave R. took the opposite position based on the fact that "this is how everyone in England does it." I assumed this was another example of the Brits changing the RAW by secret handshake to stick it to foreigners at international comps.

BTW, in FOG PC bow contacted on a side facing by a non-flank charge don't get support shooting dice. It doesn't undermine the game, just forces players to deploy their archers in historical lines rather than penny packets.

Americans arriving late for the argument again then

philqw78 wrote:Americans arriving late for the argument again then

Its a tradition dating back to World War I.

Dave's position is the one that has the approval of the authors. Which is a shame. The rationale is that the charger should not get a benefit from a charge that hits the side of a BG except by a legal flank charge, but because the rules say every base contacted is eligible to fight, non-front rank bases are eligible to fight. At what POA and with how many dice? The Impact rules say front rank bases get 2 dice, the rules also say contacts on a flank by a normal charge is treated as contacting the enemy front.

(Engaging sarcasm mode.)

SO.... the non-front rank base becomes a front rank base! But that screws up the POAs if it isn't a supporting base, and it's not fair that a file that is eligible for support shooting can have that support soaked off by a clever charge. SO... we steal the rule for POAs of second rank bases from the melee section and arbitrarily declare that its just like hitting a second file of the same configuration and viola, we have the answer. At impact the file contacted on the front and side becomes two identical files! Now, this does nothing for the BG which is already down a POA or two, but what we REALLY want is more carnage at impact anyway. Bring on the teleporting elephants!!!!!

(End sarcasm mode.)