Slitherine

When a BG is routing is the dropping back of bases to avoid friends an option?

IE I have a BG of LH that are evading and if I drop back a file I will be caught. If I do not drop back a File I will burst through some HF Spear.

I would prefer to burst through the spear as I can rally that DISR back eventually. The "Caught" BG of LH will die.

I read the rule to say that I "Can" drop back a file or shift a base not that I "Must"
Thoughts?

Gino
SMAC

A liitle more Feta or perhaps sir prefers the Stilton?

kal5056 wrote:When a BG is routing is the dropping back of bases to avoid friends an option?

IE I have a BG of LH that are evading and if I drop back a file I will be caught. If I do not drop back a File I will burst through some HF Spear.

I would prefer to burst through the spear as I can rally that DISR back eventually. The "Caught" BG of LH will die.

I read the rule to say that I "Can" drop back a file or shift a base not that I "Must"
Thoughts?

Gino
SMAC

If it says 'can' then it is a choice, despite zoltans extremely rude assessment of it being cheese. I don't think it's any more cheesy than running your pike 4 deep because it gives you a cheesy +1 POA (the basterds who do that should be banned from competition).

Read the next bullet point.

Evaders who are contacted by chargers always count as having been charged in flank rear

Or did you mean a specific next bullet point becuase that doesn't make much sense

The burst through rules make it clear that burst throughs are not voluntary but a thing that troops may be forced to do.

I read the evade rules as saying the evading player must choose between three (voluntary) options:

1. interpenetrate friends if legally allowed to do so
2. shift sideways to avoid friends
3. drop back to avoid friends

So my reading is that if one of these options is available to the evaders then they must take it.

If none of the above options allow the evaders to complete their evade move, then the evaders must (involuntarily) burst through their friends. A player can't voluntarily opt to burst through in an evade if one of the other evade options is available; this would be tantamount to voluntarily making an illegal interpenetration.

philqw78 wrote:

Evaders who are contacted by chargers always count as having been charged in flank rear

Or did you mean a specific next bullet point becuase that doesn't make much sense

Under the evaders (routers) section, after the bits about shifiting sideways etc, the next point is, to paraphrase, "if you can't do those, you burst through", not "if you can't do those, or just don't feel like doing them, you burst through".

At least in v1, or has the ordering changed or is something missing in v2... ?!

I think the ambiguity has been removed from the rules and the authors have carefully selected words such as Can, May, Will, and Must in various places.

Why do we assume intent where there is none noted?

Gino
SMAC

kal5056 wrote:I think the ambiguity has been removed from the rules and the authors have carefully selected words such as Can, May, Will, and Must in various places.

Why do we assume intent where there is none noted?

Gino
SMAC

Wow. Gino's starting to sound like me. Have you considered law school?

Wow. I may have to argue against myself. Heck if MadCam agrees with me too I may need a shower. .

All the bullets say can. Except where it cannot avoid bursting through when it must. I'd say that means optional. It would have to be a sad day to choose that option though.

philqw78 wrote:All the bullets say can. Except where it cannot avoid bursting through when it must. I'd say that means optional. It would have to be a sad day to choose that option though.

It probably won't surprise anybody, but I've used that option.

dave_r wrote:It probably won't surprise anybody, but I've used that option.

I don't see it as a problem at all. I'd probably grumble a bit if I was surprised by it in a comp, but in the cold light of sitting calmly it seems perfectly reasonable. I can't put into words how hot under the collar I get when people start calling plays 'cheesy' that are by the RAW.

The reason I say its a sad day is not for its cheesiness but becuase you are just putting yourself deeper into truouble. Your lights must already have been in the wrong place, and then they make a different BG's life worse as well.
Plan ahead. (and don't get 6 one'd)

V2 8-14 Bursting Through Friends
"In various circumstances, battle groups may be forced to burst through other battle groups that they cannot normally interpenetrate. This is not voluntary and causes difficulties." (my emphasis).

So the consensus from contributors to this thread is that players may, in fact, (voluntarily) opt to burst through during an evade if it suits their evil purposes?

It does seem a bit ch...sorry, let's say "gamey".

You are choosing to micromanage, from your olympian view, the behaviour of two units who are reacting in extremis. The first who are routing, and therefore should be entirely outside of your control. The second are still under your control, but have routing friends closely pursued by enemy and who are therefore somewhat worried and their instinct is to lock shields (or whatever) and quite happy to leave the first unit to get butchered. And you are asking them to voluntarily compromise their own short term interests for longer term, wider picture purposes you would struggle to explain to their commander in the time avaialble (even using the instantaneous telepathic telephone).

Ravenflight, before you get too hot under the collar, isn't part of the definition of "cheese" precisely that it is allowed (or at least not forbidden) by the rules?

dave_r wrote:

philqw78 wrote:All the bullets say can. Except where it cannot avoid bursting through when it must. I'd say that means optional. It would have to be a sad day to choose that option though.

It probably won't surprise anybody, but I've used that option.

Yes, he did.

Marc

zoltan wrote:V2 8-14 Bursting Through Friends
"In various circumstances, battle groups may be forced to burst through other battle groups that they cannot normally interpenetrate. This is not voluntary and causes difficulties." (my emphasis).

So the consensus from contributors to this thread is that players may, in fact, (voluntarily) opt to burst through during an evade if it suits their evil purposes?

Assuming Zoltan is quoting correctly, this seems to specifically say bursting through is not voluntary.

It just says sometimes they are forced to. It doesn't say they must all the time, it doesn't say they sometimes get a choice.