Slitherine

Hi All,

Here's my list - what think you?

A Great Commander
3 x Troop Commanders
3 BG's of 4 Cuirassiers; Horse; Heavily Armoured; Superior; - ; Pistol; Pistol @ 64 points
2 BG's of 6 Enfants Perdu; Light Foot; Unprotected; Average; Arquebus; -; - @ 36 points
3 BG's of 2 Commanded Foot; MF; Unprotected; Average; Arquebus; -; - @ 12 points
2 BG's of 4 Reiters; Horse; Armoured; Average; Pistol; -; Pistol @ 11 points
2 GBG's of Landsknechts:
10 x HF; Unprotected; Average; -; pike; pike @ 50
2 x HF; Unprotected; Average; -; HW; HW @ 10
4 x MF; Unprotected; Average; Arquebus; -; - @ 28
1 BG of 8 Arquebusiers; MF; Unprotected; Average; Arquebus; -; - @ 48 points

Totals 797 points.

I tried to satisfy NickW's desire to use all points by buying 1 FF, but then read the rules - you have to buy them in 4's

I had 4 Cuirassier at 800 points.

I like the Dragoons if they are allowed in your year even though they don't have muskets they can skirmish and hold terrain and move out initially much faster than the Perdu.

Not sure what your commanded shot do in this army other than bulk. For 8 points you can take your Reiter's as heavily armoured which makes them more fun to park in front of someone's pike. If I was to take Reiters armoured at 1000 points I would take a 6 or two. Remember you fire three ranks deep.

Actually double checking your points I think you meant 797 points.
I don't think you need a GC. You can drop to 3 TC.

Are you intentionally dodging the Royal Swiss? I took mine as 8+2 superior armoured. Would gladly crash those into your Landsknechts.

Note I think armour is very important for pike.

Hi Hazelbark,

Thanks for your comments. They are valued. I'm not sure I agree with all of the points, so will ask for more clarification.

hazelbark wrote:I had 4 Cuirassier at 800 points.

I like the Dragoons if they are allowed in your year even though they don't have muskets they can skirmish and hold terrain and move out initially much faster than the Perdu.

Yes, well, I'm not particuarly partial to Dragoons. I've always liked them 'in theory' but haven't been able to use them very effectively in games so far. I used them once to very great effect in a game I played at CanCon, but for the most part I always find that others beat them up quite severely and quite quickly. I'm not going to try to hold terrain with the Enfants Perdu... that's what the Arquebusiers are for. I'd put a BG of 8 Arquebusiers against 2 BG's of Dragoons any day, especially if they are supported by something. Sure, you're talking about a pretty big points difference there, but I just found Dragoons way too fragile. Interested in your thoughts on Dragoons and how to use them. The move quick (if you lose initiative) but other than that I find massed shooters better.

hazelbark wrote:Not sure what your commanded shot do in this army other than bulk.

They add protection to the Reiters, which slows them down, but in combination they are a pretty deadly force. It would be something like "Cmd Shot:Reiters:Cmd Shot:Reiters:Cmd Shot".

hazelbark wrote:For 8 points you can take your Reiter's as heavily armoured which makes them more fun to park in front of someone's pike. If I was to take Reiters armoured at 1000 points I would take a 6 or two. Remember you fire three ranks deep.

I'm not sure of the advantage of this? Against shooters armour counts for nothing. If you're standing in front of pike you don't need armour as if they charge armour doesn't count for impact and if they lose that they are on the way to a world of hurt. I can see an advantage in a protracted combat, for sure.

hazelbark wrote:Actually double checking your points I think you meant 797 points.

I did - and edited.

I don't think you need a GC. You can drop to 3 TC.

I took a GC and 2 TC's with the Louis XIV (13 BG's) and found myself quite stretched. Dropping to just 3 TC's I'm not sure how you would command and control!

hazelbark wrote:Are you intentionally dodging the Royal Swiss? I took mine as 8+2 superior armoured. Would gladly crash those into your Landsknechts.

I wouldn't say I was intentionally dodging them. I've toyed with the idea of using them, and indeed made amendments to the list as follows due to your comments:

4 TC's
3 Cuirassiers (4)
3 x Commanded shot (2)
1 x Heavily Armoured Reiters (4)
1 x Armoured Reiters (4)
2 x Enfants Perdu (6)
2 x Royals Swiss (12)
1 x Arquebusiers (8).

hazelbark wrote:Note I think armour is very important for pike.

I can see that, but I'm not sure how important it is - maybe I've just played too many late games as most of my opponents are TYW or later.

ravenflight wrote:Yes, well, I'm not particuarly partial to Dragoons. Interested in your thoughts on Dragoons and how to use them. The move quick (if you lose initiative) but other than that I find massed shooters better.

Each army employs them differently in this army, they get out shot you are right. They are cheap delaying force out on one wing. They don't want to fight anything just slow down or draw off superior numbers. The LF will be run down in the open.

hazelbark wrote:Not sure what your commanded shot do in this army other than bulk.

They add protection to the Reiters, which slows them down, but in combination they are a pretty deadly force. It would be something like "Cmd Shot:Reiters:Cmd Shot:Reiters:Cmd Shot".

I get that.

The problem is in this army it is not worth it. You need to be an attacker with your army. That is a defensive position. Your Reiters in combination with your foot or Cuirassier are very strong. Commanded shot is a flawed tactical doctrine for THIS army.

hazelbark wrote:For 8 points you can take your Reiter's as heavily armoured which makes them more fun to park in front of someone's pike. If I was to take Reiters armoured at 1000 points I would take a 6 or two. Remember you fire three ranks deep.

I'm not sure of the advantage of this? Against shooters armour counts for nothing. If you're standing in front of pike you don't need armour as if they charge armour doesn't count for impact and if they lose that they are on the way to a world of hurt. I can see an advantage in a protracted combat, for sure.

Armour doesn't count at impact but it counts in melee which will help your survivability versus Pike as will 6s. Then you bounce off and get to shoot again. Also the heavy armour is huge in cavalry melee as well. Run through some tests. Its not a common troop type and is under appreciated. In this army it has a logic.

I took a GC and 2 TC's with the Louis XIV (13 BG's) and found myself quite stretched. Dropping to just 3 TC's I'm not sure how you would command and control!

I appreciate that. For me its about designing the army. 1 TC with the main foot force. 1 TC with the main Mounted strike force. 1 TC to be determined on specific battle plan and who is moving first. Although I do like an FC + 2 TC for this army better.

hazelbark wrote:Note I think armour is very important for pike.

I can see that, but I'm not sure how important it is - maybe I've just played too many late games as most of my opponents are TYW or later.

Well it all depends on how out of period you are playing. The more later period my opponents I have found the more mounted I want. The armour can matter on foot for the brief amount of long range infantry fire.

Hi Hazelbark,

Thanks again for your comments.

hazelbark wrote:

ravenflight wrote:Yes, well, I'm not particuarly partial to Dragoons. Interested in your thoughts on Dragoons and how to use them. The move quick (if you lose initiative) but other than that I find massed shooters better.

Each army employs them differently in this army, they get out shot you are right. They are cheap delaying force out on one wing. They don't want to fight anything just slow down or draw off superior numbers. The LF will be run down in the open.

Yes, I can start to see how you're going to use them in this army. I unfortunately won initiative in nearly every battle at CanCon so never had the chance to use my dragoons out on a wing delaying the enemy. The one time I did very effectively use the dragoons was against a new player who didn't put a commander with the wing and so was slow and couldn't repair any damages.

I guess in the design of your Huguenot army, the Dragoons are almost a forlorn hope - throw them out, pull them back slowly and if they get destroyed they do and you lose a few attrition points, but in the mean time you've just destroyed his army.

Out of interest, I've done some jiggery poke with my list and come up with using the two BG's of dragoons in the way you're suggesting. I'm wondering though, in your (and anyone else who wants to put in) opinion is a 3 base unit of average or a 4 base unit of poor better? I think the 3 base unit of average. They only take one hit to take a test BUT they take two losses to disappear, same as the poor. If they are a delaying force then you really want to keep them 'just out of range' and pull them back slowly 'delaying the enemy'. You don't want them to stick around and fight until the last minute.

hazelbark wrote:Also the heavy armour is huge in cavalry melee as well. Run through some tests. Its not a common troop type and is under appreciated. In this army it has a logic.

Yes, well, I haven't really got a simulator, so my only way of 'running through tests' is with games which is slow.

hazelbark wrote:For me its about designing the army. 1 TC with the main foot force. 1 TC with the main Mounted strike force. 1 TC to be determined on specific battle plan and who is moving first. Although I do like an FC + 2 TC for this army better.

I just CAN'T get past the 'never run less than 4 generals' thing... I did design a list that I liked that had an allied commander (running all of the Cuirassiers) but thought that was dangerous. If you have an Ally with the Cuirassiers then you really cannot afford to put him in the front rank. If he dies you're never going to bolster those cuirassiers again. Maybe I should just get a pair and do as you say and see how it runs. Naturally, the Louis XIV were taking more tests than this army would.

Thanks again.

On the number of commanders I'm with you - the default is four TCs.

I'd only take fewer if the army was less than twelve BGs, even then I'd stick with four if the army was more focused on h-t-h than shooting. I'd take an FC only if flank marching was an integral part of the tactical doctrine. A GC only in cases where I was keen to get the initiative or expected to be hugely outshot.

On the Dragoons, four is definitely the better option even if they're poor they can take a hit from Artillery without testing. However, by dropping one of the Enfant BGs you can get four average Drg and upgrade the Reiters to Hvy A.

Dave

hazelbark wrote:Not sure what your commanded shot do in this army other than bulk. For 8 points you can take your Reiter's as heavily armoured which makes them more fun to park in front of someone's pike. If I was to take Reiters armoured at 1000 points I would take a 6 or two. Remember you fire three ranks deep.

Hi hazelbark,

Please believe me that I'm not trying to pick holes here, but I do want to understand, and I don't think I do.

If I take the Reiters 3 ranks deep and park them in front of someone's pike block, well... aren't they going to just charge? Sure, they have to pass a CMT to do so, but that isn't THAT difficult to do... and then you're at impact at a -POA.

A BG of 6 Heavily Armoured Reiters in this list cost 78 points.

A BG of 14 Armoured Lowland Infantry (using Scots because I have the list drawn up) costs 84 points.

You mosey on up to the Lowland Infantry and take a pot shot (4 dice going for 5's) meaning you get 1 maybe 2 hits, probably not enough for a test, almost no chance of a casualty.

They then have a 50:50 chance of successfully charging.

The impact will be:
4 dice @ 5's vs 4 dice at 4's, with the chances that the Reiters will lose the combat.

Of course all of this changes if either have a general, but it's still not great shakes... and a fair bulk of your points tied up for no real nett gain that I can see.

I'm interested in your comments.

Not got my rules with me, what's the plus the infantry get.

I didn't think they got a plus at impact if they charged mounted.

Never the less, yes in isolation a good chance the reiter will come off worse eventually
However the chances are both will score 1 hit. The horse break off for another 2 shots supported by the artillery assuming the space behind.

Also I thought Huguenot could only have 3 generals and the only way to get 4 was have an ally. Again no lists with me so can't check that.
cheers
Jim

Hi

my version if it helps, its been fairly successful, won 7 out of 8 played

4TC's (1 allied)

4 Cuirassiers
4 Commanded shot (all 2's 2 are allied)
1 Reiter (allied)
2 Arquebusiers on nags in 3's (I use as light horse to pin, not to fight with)(1 allied)
3 Enfants Perdu in 4's could easily be 2 in 6
1 Argulots
1 Arquebusiers
1 Royal swiss armoured 12 +2

for a total of 18 battlegroups

The allied general gets the reiter with a commanded shot on both sides and a dragoon to hold of one wing whilst the rest smash the other wing, nothing cunning but done at speed tends to work, to be fair the I struggled most with the royal swiss but then again I am not the best with foot
Cheers

Alasdair

gibby wrote:Not got my rules with me, what's the plus the infantry get.

I didn't think they got a plus at impact if they charged mounted.

Never the less, yes in isolation a good chance the reiter will come off worse eventually
However the chances are both will score 1 hit. The horse break off for another 2 shots supported by the artillery assuming the space behind.

Also I thought Huguenot could only have 3 generals and the only way to get 4 was have an ally. Again no lists with me so can't check that.
cheers
Jim

Pike in 4 ranks get +1 whether charging or not... and you're right about the generals - I never noticed that.

alasdair2204 wrote:Hi

my version if it helps, its been fairly successful, won 7 out of 8 played

4TC's (1 allied)

4 Cuirassiers
4 Commanded shot (all 2's 2 are allied)
1 Reiter (allied)
2 Arquebusiers on nags in 3's (I use as light horse to pin, not to fight with)(1 allied)
3 Enfants Perdu in 4's could easily be 2 in 6
1 Argulots
1 Arquebusiers
1 Royal swiss armoured 12 +2

for a total of 18 battlegroups

The allied general gets the reiter with a commanded shot on both sides and a dragoon to hold of one wing whilst the rest smash the other wing, nothing cunning but done at speed tends to work, to be fair the I struggled most with the royal swiss but then again I am not the best with foot
Cheers

Alasdair

Thanks Alasdair, I'll look at it.

If you struggle with the foot - why take them? I'm thinking that Reiters MAY be good enough to hold off infantry (especially seeing you seem to be the king of mounted warfare, but maybe you know something we don't) - at least long enough for the 'smash and grab' - but I'm haven't done it yet so can't really comment. My (similar) list is this:

3 Cuirassiers (4)
3 Reiters (4)
2 dragoons (4) (1 av 1 poor (but can probably both be average now that I've found out that I have to have an ally)
2 swiss (12)
1 Arquebusiers (1)

Hi

I didn't need the Swiss in period but when I played out of period it was there primarily to stop other players throwing a couple of superior P&S in the restricted zone and stopping my cuirassiers going down a flank and although sometimes they died they did do that, it is fairly hard to ignore a superior swiss keil coming at you, plus always take 4 cuirassiers as the reiters are only average and 2 shots and you've gone

cheers

Alasdair

alasdair2204 wrote:my version if it helps, its been fairly successful, won 7 out of 8 played

And the other was a 9:11 losing draw, so hardly a disaster.

rbodleyscott wrote:

alasdair2204 wrote:my version if it helps, its been fairly successful, won 7 out of 8 played

And the other was a 9:11 losing draw, so hardly a disaster.

Still remember that game, lots of casualties for 9.11 losing draw

enjoyed it

Alasdair

ravenflight wrote:If I take the Reiters 3 ranks deep and park them in front of someone's pike block, well... aren't they going to just charge? Sure, they have to pass a CMT to do so, but that isn't THAT difficult to do... and then you're at impact at a -POA.

A BG of 6 Heavily Armoured Reiters in this list cost 78 points.

A BG of 14 Armoured Lowland Infantry (using Scots because I have the list drawn up) costs 84 points.

You mosey on up to the Lowland Infantry and take a pot shot (4 dice going for 5's) meaning you get 1 maybe 2 hits, probably not enough for a test, almost no chance of a casualty.

The impact will be:
4 dice @ 5's vs 4 dice at 4's, with the chances that the Reiters will lose the combat.

I think its less bad for Reiter than you think, but it gives them a purpose other than riding off somewhere else. Granted that is likely how I would use them. But a mild luck distribution and the pike may be unhappy, but that is unlikely. In a pure tournament environment I'd do Cuirassier ala Alasdir's comments. Also the other issue it is easier to concentrated the mounted onto the pike then vice versa. So a 2nd unit can come into play rather easily. Yes that is not points equal but that is battlefield maneuver, which I know you get.

When I have run shooting pistols in period match up they are fun and people find there employment unexpected. Not game winners, but not game losers either.

Hey,

Another question - what manufacturer did you guys use for your troops?

Swiss are the only ones you can easily get so far as I can tell. I guess you can use a generic 'Cuirassier, Arquebusier etc' but are any more Huguenot than others?

alasdair2204 wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote:

alasdair2204 wrote:my version if it helps, its been fairly successful, won 7 out of 8 played

And the other was a 9:11 losing draw, so hardly a disaster.

Still remember that game, lots of casualties for 9.11 losing draw

enjoyed it

Alasdair

Especially the rather fine Benny Hill phase, with the whole of your army chasing one of my BGs and the rest of my army chasing your army.

Hi all,

Necro posting, mostly because I created this thread in the beginning and I am talking about the same subject.

In the French and Lorrainer infantry that are 4 arquebusiers and 4 pike, is the formation thus:






OR:




Where:
= Arquebus;
= Pike; and,
= Spacers

I "think" (trying to remember when I used them last..) it can be both, however the 2-4-2 isn't as clever as it looks, as you are more vulnerable to artillery as you have a 3+ deep file so you often/usually lose a base on the way in, and then you end up with a narrower formation that you need, with less overlaps.

I sort of remember either needing to make a formation change to expand to 2-2-2-2 as well, or possibly being unable to change mid game at all... which may just be my aging brain.