Slitherine

If you have two pike & shot units each with 4 mf shoot and 2 hf pike, ¿can you end up, if you detache shot, with one mf unit, 8 shot, and one only pike unit of 4 hf?

Yes - see pages 182-183.

Don

Thanks

After reading pp182-183 I'm pretty sure the answer is 'yes' but just confirm for me please...

I have 8 BG's of 4 Musket & 2 pike. 3 BG's are 'Superior' and 5 BG's are Average.

1/2 of 8 is 4... so I can 'detach shot' from 4.

I end up with:
1 BG of 8 Sup musket
1 BG of 4 Sup pike
1 BG of Sup pike and Shot
1 BG of 8 Av musket
1 BG of 4 Av pike
3 BG of Av Pike & Shot

I haven't detached two different qualities into one BG, but I HAVE detached more than half of the Superiors and less than half of the average, but EXACTLY half of the Pike and Shot of the same style.

Thoughts?

It's legal, but you do end up with 2 particularly useless Pike only units that must deploy 2 wide and 2 deep. The 2 8's of musket are only any good if you can get them both into terrain (preferably enclosed fields) - if not they'll get ridden down by cavalry!

Don

The pike can deploy deeper as you've detached all of the shot. As Don says, the Shot units are vulnerable if you don't have terrain, unless of course this is a later army and you are taking advantage of the "free" bayonets. Also you don't need to decide to detach until after the terrain is placed. When I use a list with a detached shot option I print the deployment sequence on it with "Detach Shot" highlighted so I remember to do it!

I'm not totally convinced the pike units are useless as they can provide support for your main battle line or could be used to support guns.

quackstheking wrote:It's legal, but you do end up with 2 particularly useless Pike only units that must deploy 2 wide and 2 deep. The 2 8's of musket are only any good if you can get them both into terrain (preferably enclosed fields) - if not they'll get ridden down by cavalry!

Don

Disagree about the pike being useless. They can:

Give support to everything in the army;
Rear support the artillery; and,
I'm not sure you're right about only being 2x2 (all shot have been detached, so can be deeper than original).

Also, I don't HAVE to detach all the shot I can, but if I'm in a "holy hell I can't move" terrain setup I have the option TO detach as above. I would just hate to plan to and have 'no, errata x says you can't'

kevinj wrote:The pike can deploy deeper as you've detached all of the shot. As Don says, the Shot units are vulnerable if you don't have terrain, unless of course this is a later army and you are taking advantage of the "free" bayonets. Also you don't need to decide to detach until after the terrain is placed. When I use a list with a detached shot option I print the deployment sequence on it with "Detach Shot" highlighted so I remember to do it!

I'm not totally convinced the pike units are useless as they can provide support for your main battle line or could be used to support guns.

Lol - is there an echo in here?

Beat me to it!

kevinj wrote: I'm not totally convinced the pike units are useless as they can provide support for your main battle line or could be used to support guns.

They are wonderful support on the mounted flank. You drive those 4 pike into the 12 MU zone and they can really complicate the other guns mounted arm. There is a lot less firepower there so they are not likely to get shot up.

On another question - which I only just noticed and have never 'policed' (in the sense of asked to see someone's list):

P183 states:

"In tournaments, players wishing to use the detached shot option must have a second army list (differing only in this regard) pre-prepared and can only use their main list or that alternative list"

This seems limiting.

You have your primary list -or- you have AN alternate list.

In the above example I gave I can detach only the Superiors, the Superiors and the Average, or just the Average depending on my requirements, but the rules say that in a tournament I can only have AN alternate list. I can see how I could have THREE alternate lists... in fact it gets worse, as half my pike and shot are armoured pike and the other half unarmoured, so I could have detached armoured pike or detached unarmoured pike! In other lists that have probably been made up there would be situations where you could have even more variations.

Thoughts?

I think if I was an organizer (and I'm considering running MOAB) I'd be saying 'so long as you've got an alternate list and write down somewhere which list your using after terrain has been placed, you can have as many variations as you like - so long as the variations are ONLY detaching shot.

It is simpler to say you have a list and a list prepared before the comp that has a detached shot option exercised.

So in effect you have 2 lists and can play either in a round and a different in the next round.

But unlimited detached shot options is too cumbersome.

Note one of the main errors occurs at deployment when you get the OOM wrong on the detached list.

It is probably equally arguable from a historical point. Many of the armies say in the TYW had a very clear battle plan for deployment that was set. It is likely that commanded out shot were a prepared plan and not a johnny on the spot decision of the morning.

Well you are entitled to write your own rules for a Comp but I would expect the rules to be played as written unless it was very clearly stated otherwise in the blurb. It also may become a list checker's nightmare.

It is also more historical. Armies of the period would often have planned deployments that they did not have the staff to tinker with once on the battlefield.

Hazelbark & Timmy make some good points, but on the issue of Historical accuracy I have to strongly disagree.

In the TYW you are probably correct as to the pre-battle plan -BUT- in the TYW an army wasn't fighting TYW one day and Samurai the next, followed by Buccaneers, after an initial battle against Moghuls.

I may be fighting in Europe one day and South America the next. The terrain effects can be HUGE.

So, my ONLY agreement is that it would be an organisational nightmare (for the list checkers) but as to historical accuracy - nah, sorry, that went out when I was fighting my first ahistorical opponent.

Fortunately EVERYONE in CanCon was from Europe. Was really surprised (pleasantly).

ravenflight wrote:On another question - which I only just noticed and have never 'policed' (in the sense of asked to see someone's list):

P183 states:

"In tournaments, players wishing to use the detached shot option must have a second army list (differing only in this regard) pre-prepared and can only use their main list or that alternative list"

Personally I didn't want this in the rules and would have happily left it that players could detach shot as they desired depending on the battlefield in front of them with the only limit being the one on only half the BGs being allowed to. I was, however, in the minority on this amongst the authors

I think for tournaments a single detached shot list that has been checked in advance is reasonable as it ensures that people don't inadvertantly use an illegal detached option and still provides those armies that can use it with a variant that others don't have. Having multiple options or free choice could also introduce a delay in deployment as people decide how they are going to detach their shot rather than a simple yes or no. If you do decide to try something different it would be great to see a report afterwards.

Kevin,

It would also stop people deciding at the begining of each deployment batch.

Perhaps it is a change that should be made for all competition army list submissions.

Don