Slitherine

swiss pikemen destroy everything, valuable against heavy cavarly in attack and defense, unbreakable against heavy infantry ( ?!? )

i remember time ago that pikemen were weakest against melee infantry foot ( especially knights in foot ), it's different now, why ?

i think that it's most right if pikemen are effective only against cavarly and weak against infantry, pikes are heavy and not good against swordsmen or halberders.

swiss army ( especially burgundian swiss ),like catalan army, have few weakness and too many advantages.

They don't handle rough terrain or volleys of arrows to good, though.

I recently crushed a Swiss army with a English WOTR one by placing the knights in woodland, and having the longbows rain arrows on the Pikemen.

I think most problems can be dealt with by learning and to adapt to the proper tactics for the task. Then you have to have some luck too!

voskarp wrote:They don't handle rough terrain or volleys of arrows to good, though.

I recently crushed a Swiss army with a English WOTR one by placing the knights in woodland, and having the longbows rain arrows on the Pikemen.

I think most problems can be dealt with by learning and to adapt to the proper tactics for the task. Then you have to have some luck too!

yes but i think that pike ( and offensive spears ) must have some weakness, it's not realistic that units typically anti-cavarly can beat heavy infantry with heavy weapons, halberds and two hands swords ( heavy weapons ) were designed to break pikes too ( main use was against horses ). I think that pike and offensive spears must have malus in melee vs heavy weapons units.

Pikes are usually pretty poor, IMO. They are useless in terrain, and are easily dispatched with arrows. What's more, armored heavy weapon dudes are great against them(cheaper, though worse on impact). Once a pike drops to 75% strength, it loses 1 POA, which makes it very poor, again.

Seems to me that heavy infantry with heavy weapons do fine against pikes, if they are armored or heavily armored. In fact, they're perhaps the only unit to be equal to an undisrupted pike unit(well, except armored spears), which is quite valuable if you don't have any ranged units. Compared to Swordsmen, Heavy Weapons is vastly superior.

Pikes may seem very powerful to an inexperienced player, but once you understand how they work, they aren't so great. I usually avoid pikes because of their great weaknesses against terrain and archers.

Tiavals wrote:Pikes are usually pretty poor, IMO. They are useless in terrain, and are easily dispatched with arrows. What's more, armored heavy weapon dudes are great against them(cheaper, though worse on impact). Once a pike drops to 75% strength, it loses 1 POA, which makes it very poor, again.

Seems to me that heavy infantry with heavy weapons do fine against pikes, if they are armored or heavily armored. In fact, they're perhaps the only unit to be equal to an undisrupted pike unit(well, except armored spears), which is quite valuable if you don't have any ranged units. Compared to Swordsmen, Heavy Weapons is vastly superior.

Pikes may seem very powerful to an inexperienced player, but once you understand how they work, they aren't so great. I usually avoid pikes because of their great weaknesses against terrain and archers.

in many games i noticed that heavy weapons heavy armoured units did bad effect in melee vs swiss pikemen like billhook infantry ( heavy weapons, heavy armour ) and foot knights ( commander units also ). pikemen must be defensive units but their attack against heavy armoured infantry is effective.

Swiss pike armies are in my opinion are unbelievable in open terrain and unless you can get consentrated bow fire into them they virtually walk over anything in S0A.Ive never been able to wear them down with bows as they have little effect unless massed on a hill or opening up from woods.Yes once you wear the pikes down to 75 % they are on level pegging but some times that can be difficult.On an open battle field i would back the Swiss pike every time to win.My only loss with the Swiss was against Eric and terrain was a factor there and Eric s brilliant tactics ofcoarse

In the open they may be kind of unstoppable, but weren't they hard to beat in reality? They should be more vulnerable to flank attacks then other troop types though...

voskarp wrote:In the open they may be kind of unstoppable, but weren't they hard to beat in reality? They should be more vulnerable to flank attacks then other troop types though...

it's not easy work on flanks because pikemen move enough fast ( more that heavy infantry ) ,more that heavy infantry and heavy cavarly is not many manouvrable. However i think that needs some adjustment like pikemen beat cavarly and light infantry and heavy weapons and foot knights beat pikemen. In this way a swiss army must have a more balance of heavy weapons and pikemen in list and get less versatile pikemen and less "roadroller" tactic.

pikemen are pretty much dominant in the open. that's historical. at marignano, 1515, the french beat the swiss pikemen with a combination of artillery and heavy knights. in game terms, the artillery would reduce the swiss to under 75% strength removing their pike bonus. french knights would still charge in at -1 but would likely not become disordered (being superior) and the odds would be even in melee. if the pikes were disorganized by fire, then the knights would be at an advantage. in other historical situation where pikes were beaten, they were beaten by other pikes (pavia 1525, ceresole 1542) or they had to assault a fortified position, Cerignola 1503, (a sunken road at bicocca, 1522). In the 15th century before arquebuses started to become used in mass, they were unstoppable. burgundian longbows certainly did not stop them. there is nothing non historical about swiss pikes being able to steamroll you if you let them.

fogman wrote:pikemen are pretty much dominant in the open. that's historical. at marignano, 1515, the french beat the swiss pikemen with a combination of artillery and heavy knights. in game terms, the artillery would reduce the swiss to under 75% strength removing their pike bonus. french knights would still charge in at -1 but would likely not become disordered (being superior) and the odds would be even in melee. if the pikes were disorganized by fire, then the knights would be at an advantage. in other historical situation where pikes were beaten, they were beaten by other pikes (pavia 1525, ceresole 1542) or they had to assault a fortified position, Cerignola 1503, (a sunken road at bicocca, 1522). In the 15th century before arquebuses started to become used in mass, they were unstoppable. burgundian longbows certainly did not stop them. there is nothing non historical about swiss pikes being able to steamroll you if you let them.

the fact is that artillery fog has many short range, in useful range the swiss line is already many close and FOG artillery is expensive and one or 2 pieces max in many armies. the fireguns squads get low damage ebery volley and rare effect of distrupted. More range for archery and fire can be fine ( i think ).

The Swiss Pikemen can be devastating on an open field. But they have their weaknesses as every army.
Almost useless on bad terrain, missile fire can bring them down. They are slow and as that their maneuverability is really bad. With flexible armies and with patience you can really hurt them. You just have to forget to win the battle on 9 or 10 turns. If they get scattered they are probably toast too.
In my opinion Superior HW armored knights have a good chance of beating them. Specially on a prolonged melee.
Better to have the Swiss as allied than as the bulk of the army.
Believe me I'm currently usingbbthem on the League and I had good results and also those ones you want to forget
My 2 cents.

Cheers

The Swiss pikemen might even be undepowered compared to their historical counterparts:
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... n_der_Birs
1500 Swiss pikemen attacking a 20 000 strong French army:

"In the early morning, they managed to surprise and rout French vanguard troops at Pratteln and Muttenz. Enthused by this success, and in spite of strict orders to the contrary, the Swiss troops crossed the Birs to meet the bulk of the French army of 20,000 men, which was ready for battle.

Immediately the Swiss forces formed three pike squares of five hundred men each, and they fought well when Armagnac cavalry charged again and again and were repulsed. The fighting lasted for several hours and was of an intensity evoking awed commentary from witnesses. Eventually, the Swiss pike squares were weakening, so the commander ordered his men to retreat into a small hospital of St. Jakob. A reinforcement force from Basel was repulsed, and the Armagnac troops set their own artillery into bombarding the hospital. The Swiss pikemen suffered heavy casualties. The Swiss, as the offensive party, categorically refused to surrender and as the Armagnacs moved into the hospital, the remaining Swiss were pressed into the hospital's garden and killed to the last man within half an hour."

ScipioAsinus wrote:The Swiss pikemen might even be undepowered compared to their historical counterparts:
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... n_der_Birs
1500 Swiss pikemen attacking a 20 000 strong French army:

"In the early morning, they managed to surprise and rout French vanguard troops at Pratteln and Muttenz. Enthused by this success, and in spite of strict orders to the contrary, the Swiss troops crossed the Birs to meet the bulk of the French army of 20,000 men, which was ready for battle.

Immediately the Swiss forces formed three pike squares of five hundred men each, and they fought well when Armagnac cavalry charged again and again and were repulsed. The fighting lasted for several hours and was of an intensity evoking awed commentary from witnesses. Eventually, the Swiss pike squares were weakening, so the commander ordered his men to retreat into a small hospital of St. Jakob. A reinforcement force from Basel was repulsed, and the Armagnac troops set their own artillery into bombarding the hospital. The Swiss pikemen suffered heavy casualties. The Swiss, as the offensive party, categorically refused to surrender and as the Armagnacs moved into the hospital, the remaining Swiss were pressed into the hospital's garden and killed to the last man within half an hour."

surely pikemen were killer of french cavarly, off course the pike, like the halberds were done to beat Habsburg cavarly. The concept is not many different by japanese Yari ( and japanese used as the heavy katana nodachi vs horses like two hand sword ).