Slitherine

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/405 ... 20v3.0.zip

Download link for version 3.0 posted 16 July 2014.

Thanks for the scenario! Looking forward to play with some good old chariots again; has been a long time!

You'll find quite a few chariots there Schweinewitz. Maybe I should have added even more.

Actually, among the key gaming problems for this battle, such as it is, is that we just don't know who the Ne'arin really were or how many chariots if any they had. The fact that they were marching from the Syrian port (not that far away from Qadesh, afaik) does not preclude the presence of foot soldiers among the Ne'arin. Then again, Ramesiad wall carvings depict them as charioteers, but these could have been the Egyptian leadership of the Ne'arin foot soldiers. Is a puzzlement, as Yul Brynner used to sing.

Some historical analysts believe that the Ne'arin were in fact the Seth or Set corps which traveled by sea to Qadesh, to secure the port of Amuru before the battle. That would make sense, for the Ne'arin played a key role in the battle but the Seth corps never made it to the actual battlefield from what information I could find. If such were indeed the case, the Ne'arin were not necessarily racing to the battlefield at Rameses' alarmed summons, but simply had planned to arrive there on that day, as previously scheduled. like the other marching corps. Who knows.

Very interesting battle and imo worth the gaming, but a bit of a headache. Another issue is that I couldn't find any really acceptable representation/modeling of the Hittite forces among the army figures in FoG. I decided not to use the Lybian spearmen as substitutes because I don't think the Hittites wore feather headressing like the North African spearmen apparently did.

ZeaBed wrote:Another issue is that I couldn't find any really acceptable representation/modeling of the Hittite forces among the army figures in FoG. I decided not to use the Lybian spearmen as substitutes because I don't think the Hittites wore feather headressing like the North African spearmen apparently did.

IMO 'biblical foot b' would fit better, but unfortunately those guys come without spears. - When I look at a scenario such as this I think the release of 'Swifter than Eagles' would be very preferable! Well, hope dies last ...

Schweinewitz wrote:

ZeaBed wrote:Another issue is that I couldn't find any really acceptable representation/modeling of the Hittite forces among the army figures in FoG. I decided not to use the Lybian spearmen as substitutes because I don't think the Hittites wore feather headressing like the North African spearmen apparently did.

IMO 'biblical foot b' would fit better, but unfortunately those guys come without spears. - When I look at a scenario such as this I think the release of 'Swifter than Eagles' would be very preferable! Well, hope dies last ...

Knowing myself (I think), this scenario is one of those that will keep hounding and plaguing me with my own afterthoughts and discovery of new info after posting it. I was thinking of using 'biblical foot' but they look too movie-like for my taste. I'm still looking for new ideas, just to justify version 1.1 in my mind.

Concerning the scenario itself, I remember the GBoH version of Kadesh (alt. spelling) which was ok iirc, but... meh. There was a great tabletop version many many years ago that came in a magazine called (also iirc) Strategy & Tactics. It was one of the scenarios in a game set titled Armageddon and the issue was dedicated to ancient warfare from 1300 to 500 BC.

The link at the top of the page is now v1.1.

You've redid the whole map, changed the OOB ... everything! Must have been a though job.

Started to play the new version today, following the rules in the (BTW excellent) description (except that I'm playing against the AI); ATM I'm at turn 8 and had a lot of fun yet. I like the huge map and the possibilities it offers to manoeuvre the troops extensively. More thoughts tomorrow, after some sleep and work.

I'm am currently in a multiplayer game of this scenario ver 1.0 and it is quite interesting and fun. The dispersed deployments are really appreciated.
What is a the changes with 1.1?

Thanks

lascar wrote:I'm am currently in a multiplayer game of this scenario ver 1.0 and it is quite interesting and fun. The dispersed deployments are really appreciated.
What is a the changes with 1.1?

Thanks

Lascar, the changes in 1.1 are simply too numerous to enumerate. They involve the map's adaptation to the best I could make of the historical record, the OOB and the numbers involved and their position on the board. This has been a geometric nightmare but worth it for me.

Despite the antiquity of the original battle, the different versions concerning what happened and how are many, and somewhat contradictory. After analyzing google maps and going over many sources, I finally chose an OOB and a battle map that made sense to me. I had to try many configurations until I settled on one. My intention was to strike a balance between authenticity and playability. I just hope that one day we get some really nice figurines designed just for the Hittites.

I did not use the maps by Healy, Kitchen or the one in the wikipedia kitchen. All those books were very useful indeed. Surprisingly, the short analysis that gathered the most recent opinions and findings on this battle came from an unexpected source:

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/kadesh.htm

The scenario games I've played were pretty well balanced. The Egyptians have a slight edge in the victory spread when they win, but the Hittites have won an equal share of the confrontations thus far.

Zeabed,

Sounds like you have thoroughly researched this battle and it shows. Just finished the ver 1.0 as the Hittites and they lost by quite a large margin.
I forgot to implement your optional rules governing the activation of part of the Egyptian army. Looks like these rules should be implemented for play balance sake. I will make sure that is done in future games.

Lascar, you're right about the optional rules being particularly recommended in this scenario. FoG doesn't have timed entrances for units as, say, GBoH did. Since the premise here is that the Hittites are trying to defeat the Egyptians in detail it's important to duplicate the historical sequence (such as we have it) to strive for some playability and balance. In fact it may be even better and more accurate to delay the arrival of the Ne'arin until the eighth turn. If the Ptah and the Ne'arin move too early it will unbalance the game and it would be inaccurate based on all accounts and interpretations of the historical battle. Just my two cents. Hope you enjoy it and thanks for the feedback.

Zeabed, I will play ver. 1.1 next with the optional rules. Should be interesting to see how well the Hittites fare the next time. I really appreciate you efforts in designing this scenario. There are few available for the ancient mid-east which I find a particularity interesting period of history. If Swifter than Eagles is ever released it will be a must buy for me.

lascar wrote:Zeabed, I will play ver. 1.1 next with the optional rules. Should be interesting to see how well the Hittites fare the next time. I really appreciate you efforts in designing this scenario. There are few available for the ancient mid-east which I find a particularity interesting period of history. If Swifter than Eagles is ever released it will be a must buy for me.

Aside from the books I listed and the touregypt link, here's another interesting take on the battle. Beyond a certain point, one informed interpretation seems to me to be as valid as another. But they all seem to agree that the Ne'arin arrived when the battle was well under way at the Amun camp. The Ptah corps may have arrived towards the very end, if that.

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/ram ... mpaign.htm

Enjoyable scenario, well done

I have been playing the latest version of Qadesh and enjoying it. I have not yet been able to win as the Hittites in the two multiplayer games I have played thus far. Will try playing as the Egyptians next.

One question,in version 1.1 Some of the Hittite allied foot that are light spear and sword armed are classified as light foot and therefore cannot attack enemy units. I can understand javelin men being light foot who have a ranged missile capability, but light spear and sword units that cannot engage in melee combat are not very useful. Their Egyptian counterparts are classified as medium foot which gives the Egyptians a considerable advantage. Is there some particular reason for this?

lascar wrote:I have been playing the latest version of Qadesh and enjoying it. I have not yet been able to win as the Hittites in the two multiplayer games I have played thus far. Will try playing as the Egyptians next.

One question,in version 1.1 Some of the Hittite allied foot that are light spear and sword armed are classified as light foot and therefore cannot attack enemy units. I can understand javelin men being light foot who have a ranged missile capability, but light spear and sword units that cannot engage in melee combat are not very useful. Their Egyptian counterparts are classified as medium foot which gives the Egyptians a considerable advantage. Is there some particular reason for this?

Muwatalli's army was a hodgepodge of conquered, vassal or allied nations, mainly from the Anatolian region. They even spoke different languages in what surely was a logistical nightmare. We don't know what M. was thinking during this battle, but apparently he did not send in his infantry at all and relied only on his chariots. Maybe he had a good reason, but probably not. There are no hittite figurines per se, and I've had my work cut out for me trying to find the right FoG units to represent M's army.

If you were referring to the units at the very rear of the Hittite army, those follow the chariots and the Hittite heavy foot as secondary troops, whose job it was to mop up and look for rear attacks. This is taken fro healey's book.

But your general point is well-taken and the Lycian mercenaries and the Hittite javelinmen should be medium foot. I have changed them. As before, the Hittite or Aleppoan units with heavier weapons are either MF or HF.

Thanks Zeabed for the quick reply and version 1.2. I look forward to trying it out.

Looking over 1.2 I noticed that the Hittite allied foot (light spear and sword armed) are still classified as light foot. Did you intend to make them medium foot like the Lycian mercenaries and javelinmen too?

lascar wrote:Looking over 1.2 I noticed that the Hittite allied foot (light spear and sword armed) are still classified as light foot. Did you intend to make them medium foot like the Lycian mercenaries and javelinmen too?

No, I do not. As I explained in my previous post they are secondary units designed to mop up after the chariots and the hvy and mdm foot forward of them have crashed through the enemy. Everyone is free, however, to edit any custom game in the scenario editor which is a great resource and is easy to use. Some players in this sub-forum have even posted alternate versions of both historical and custom scenarios.

According to Mark Healy's book and other sources for the Hittites the chariot was the primary weapon, the foot soldiers were all secondary. Muwatalli certainly expected his chariots to do the job that day. So I may even have been pushing it a bit by making some of the Hittite foot heavy infantry at all. The lack of models for actual Hittite chariots in the FoG library is a problem with this game, as the Lybian chariots which I've used are not as well protected as, and otherwise much inferior to, their Egyptian counterparts. I hope to see some chariot models in the future that are more appropriate to the Hittites, so I can upgrade them.

Thank you, good scenario