Slitherine

I'm disappointed that under v2.0 these guys weren't fixed in some way. They really are one of the worst troop types in the game - expensive and vulnerable to nearly everything. Doesn't really feel like the Egyptian empire would have been so powerful if they had used FOG rules/lists.

(then again, maybe they have been fixed but I can't check my new v2.0 rules as they only stay on screen for 7 seconds at a time! )

There is no more -POA for support shooting and protected opponents don't get to a +POA due to better armor. So less bad in combat but also less able to maneuver out of the way since turn 90 and move is now - 2MU.

Chris

Good points - so they will be significantly better against protected swordsmen - and you see a lot of those in their enemies. Plus they aren't really expensive. A BG of 8 bases is only 48 points. Whether they've impoved enough to be decent value though I'm not sure.

I think they may be significantly better in period now.

hazelbark wrote:I think they may be significantly better in period now.

They were pretty good before. As long as you didn't expect them to stand upto a mounted Heavy Chariot Charge a la DBM.

dave_r wrote:

hazelbark wrote:I think they may be significantly better in period now.

They were pretty good before. As long as you didn't expect them to stand upto a mounted Heavy Chariot Charge a la DBM.

The fact that most infantry do not double POA them (in period) is a pretty big deal.

hazelbark wrote:

dave_r wrote:

hazelbark wrote:I think they may be significantly better in period now.

They were pretty good before. As long as you didn't expect them to stand upto a mounted Heavy Chariot Charge a la DBM.

The fact that most infantry do not double POA them (in period) is a pretty big deal.

Can't see it making a massive difference to be honest - if you are average and a POA down, then you are still going to lose, just maybe not as quickly.

Under FOG 1 they were absolute rubbish, in period or out of period. Everything shoots them to bits and everything cuts them to bits. And their cost means that you generally had no more troops than the opposition. So, we'll see whether FOG 2 helps them at all or whether they have to remain in the cupboard.

NickW wrote:Under FOG 1 they were absolute rubbish, in period or out of period. Everything shoots them to bits and everything cuts them to bits. And their cost means that you generally had no more troops than the opposition. So, we'll see whether FOG 2 helps them at all or whether they have to remain in the cupboard.

Certainly far from great in v1. Part of the problem is that in Egyptian armies you end up with quite a few of them - though I suppose with the later dynasties the points could mostly go on chariots. I quite like having a single BG or 8 drilled unprotected MF archers. You can usually keep them away from serious enemy shooting and they put out a lot of shooting themselves. They're good for rear support and can turn and move to shoot up weaker troops coming round a flank. But in large numbers they can become a target I agree.

dave_r wrote:

hazelbark wrote:The fact that most infantry do not double POA them (in period) is a pretty big deal.

Can't see it making a massive difference to be honest - if you are average and a POA down, then you are still going to lose, just maybe not as quickly.

What if you have overlaps ? Say 8 archers vs 6, or even 4 protected swordsmen. At ++POA the protected swordsmen were previously at an advantage if single overlapped, evens if double overlapped. Now the advantage swings in favour of the archers.

And against the most common enemy of the time they will odds on win the impact, which is now much more painful to the loser than before.

And it beats me how "they'll still lose but not as quickly" wouldn't be considered a significant change. If you are given extra time to achieve something elsewhere on the table, it's up to you to try to make something of it.