Slitherine

Our question is : how to rsolve the following :

A cossack units charges the flank of an artillery unit . The gunners flee . As they flee, a hussars ennemy unit has now the possibility to counter-charge, something it could not do as the artillery unit was in the way .

As they counter charge, they intercept the unhappy cossacks and so;...the gunners should not have fled as the cossacks will not manage to contact the artillery but if they do not flee the hussars could not have countercharged ...

More, the gunners having fled ....the cossacks wuld have charged the hussars frontally ...in order to do that they would have to take a test which they did not have to do at the beginning ...

So how do you resolve that .

It may also happen if a SK unit being charged flees and ....behind there is a cuirassier unit that could not have counter-charged but now may counter charge or intercept ...what happens .

I other words : when do you determine what unit can intercept or counter charge : before or after the first target flees ( evades ) and so opens the way t a countercharge or an interception !

Also : the cossacks did not have to test to charge as they charged a unit in the flank but got intercepted frontally ...test or no test ?



We ruled that as the french hussars did intercept, logically the gunners had fled . In the ensuing melee ...the cossacks won ( with the help of some russian cuirrasiers as support )

I think you can only counter charge if you are the target of the charge, since the artillery was the target and not the Hussars no counter charge.
The Cossacks moves its full distance and can charge into any unit within 2 MU of the original charge path and within their full move distance. One of those odd cases where your cavalry does not have to move when charged.
Think of is as the smoke clears the charging Cossacks see a new target of opportunity, and the Hussars have less time to react.

As for intercepts, the intercept move before the chargers.
Page 32 last bullet "The original target of the assault does not have to make any of the otherwise compulsory tests for being assaulted if all the assaulting units fail to make contact because of the interception"

So if you can successfully intercept then the artillery crew would not have had to test to stand. Something to keep in mind if you have enemy cav within 2 MU of infantry in tactical and you can intercept them, no auto drop or CT for cohesion losses

So it looks like the move order would be:
Declare assault
Declare intercepts and move intercepting unit
Move chargers into contact with interceptors, or...If no intercepts then make outcome move for being charged by cavalry
move chargers into original target, or in case of evade, move chargers full move distance into new target if any are present.

We ruled that as the french hussars did intercept

The Hussars could not have intercepted since you can not interpenetrate friends during an intercept move and the artillery would have made its outcome move after the interceptors moved so would still have been in the way.
Page 32, 5th bullet down.

the cossacks did not have to test to charge as they charged a unit in the flank but got intercepted frontally ...test or no test ?

I would say the only test here would have been to charge their original target so in this case no test, and they get intercepted. Bad day to be a Cossack.

deadtorius wrote:I think you can only counter charge if you are the target of the charge, since the artillery was the target and not the Hussars no counter charge.

The 'pick the nearest new target within 2MU' rule on page 31 could apply here, in which case the Hussars would be treated as if they were the primary target and countercharge. this would be a simple solution, however there is a problem in that this rule states "For the purposes of this rule, abandoned Artillery models are ignored".

I'm fairly confident that that the reference to abandoned artillery refers to the new target (ie you don't target abandoned artillery if this is the closest new target), rather than the the exception applying where the original disappeared target was artillery. However this is arguable.

The pick a new victim rule on page 31 applies where the target "...moves out of range ..." Again, arguable whether abandoned artillery has done this.

However, if I was called to give an umpire's decision on this, in the absence of anyone pointing out anything else on-point in the rules, I would go with:

1. Cossacks declare charge on artillery (no CMT needed as charging flank).

2. Artillery decides if it wants to abandon guns without a test, or to CT and try to stand and shoot.

3. Assuming the artillery abandons whatever their choice, the Cossacks decide whether they wish to do a converted charge against the Hussars, if the Hussars are within 2MU of the abandoned artillery.

4. If no converted charge, cossacks move up to abandoned artillery position and stop. (no specific rule for this I'm aware of, but it is how I would play it in this case).

5. If a converted charge, then the Hussars react as if the artillery had never existed and countercharge as normal. The cossacks do not, I believe have to CMT to charge the Hussars. Again, no rule either way on this in the rules but I recall Terry previsouly posted that for pursuits and converted charges the usual CMT's and restrictions (ie infantry cannot charge mounted) do not apply. The asaulting unit takes its tests based on its original target and 'yahoos' into what might be behind.

Cheers
Brett

the Cossacks decide whether they wish to do a converted charge against the Hussars

I have not my copy of the rules but is it not mandatory for the charging unit to continue charging ? ( make a full move ) .

Then you have in that particular case another question : should the cossacks test or not ..

The hussars were within 2 MU and in charge range . In the game they lost the melee

The artillery decided it was best to retire not liking the odds vs a flank charge ....and in front there were 3 russian infantry units

I think you have to make the full charge move can't stop where your evaded target was. Its optional if you want to careen into a new target or not.

Perhaps Terry needs to wade in on this one, although he did post once that a cavalry charge that gets intercepted will still trigger a counter charge if the counter charging unit can contact the chargers, the interceptors are not in the way.

Only other thing is that page 30 states that cavalry charged "frontally" will counter charge. so if flank charge or rear charge sounds like you stand and take it.

although he did post once that a cavalry charge that gets intercepted will still trigger a counter charge if the counter charging unit can contact the chargers, the interceptors are not in the way.

I agree the difficulty or problem is :

The cavalry is being charge +/- frontally but is behind a large artillery unit which is charged on the flank . In order to intercept as they are not the target , they have to wait for the gunners to take cover in the nearby infantry unit ...but if the intercept the gunners should not have fled ...so the hussars would njot have been able to intercept as they would have to do it trough a friendly unit ..

intercepts move before outcome moves so the gunners would be in the way regardless. After they fled there is no longer an opportunity to intercept. No intercept was possible if the gunners either stood or ran away.

Question still remains if they would counter charge which it looks like if the Hussars were facing the Cossacks then they would make a normal counter charge, if the Cossacks target them as an alternate target.

If it was to be a flank charge into a secondary target, looks like the Hussars can not counter charge.
Educated guessing on the counter charge part.

My ruling would be:

1. The Cossacks have no problem declaring the charge on the flank of the gunners.
2. Artillery decides which of the following it wishes to do:
....a. Abandon the guns without a test - only if there is a friendly infantry unit within 2MU.
....b. Take a test if it wishes to stand - which it must do if there are no friendly infantry within 2MU.
....c. If it is horse artillery and the charge comes from more than 4MU it may choose to limber and retire. (take a test and lose 1 cohesion if failed - but still retire - adding an extra +2 to the distance because they are horse artillery)
3. Assuming the artillery is abandoned or retired, the Cossacks will attempt to complete their move distance in the direction charged (through the guns), or may wheel towards the Hussars.
4. At the top of page 31 there is a statement: "If this new target can be reached as part of a normal move it react as if it was the original target" - Therefore, if the Hussars would be contacted they will counter-charge. (This does not change the action/reaction of the gunners).
5. The Cossacks continue into the Hussars even though they would normally not be able to without a CMT.