Slitherine

Point of advantage
page 48
In close combat, each front rank base uses its own POAs. Rear rank bases ( except support shooters in the impact phase) use the same as the front rank
So does it mean that a BG with a front line of spearmen and a second rank of archers, is granted by a + POA for two ranks of spearmen.

Point of advantage
page 48
In close combat, each front rank base uses its own POAs. Rear rank bases ( except support shooters in the impact phase) use the same as the front rank
So does it mean that a BG with a front line of spearmen and a second rank of archers, is granted by a + POA for two ranks of spearmen.

No it means the rear rank use the front rank POAs not that they are treated as if Spearmen.

So front rank spear gets a + if spearmen in 2 ranks, so with Bw bhind doesn't get it. Rear rank adds dice at an = POA therefore. So not as good as 2 ranks of Spear. But the STDY Sp will stll cancel some POAs against them. Much better therefreo than 2 ranks of Bowmen in combat.

Hope that makes some sense.

Si

sounds logical

dvorkin wrote:Point of advantage
page 48
In close combat, each front rank base uses its own POAs. Rear rank bases ( except support shooters in the impact phase) use the same as the front rank
So does it mean that a BG with a front line of spearmen and a second rank of archers, is granted by a + POA for two ranks of spearmen.

rules wrote: Close combat POAs that require a minimum number of ranks only apply if all those ranks have the required capability.

To reduce the chance of such confusion is why we stopped calling weapon skills POAs. They are now called "capabilities". A capability may grant a POA in certain circumstances. So the bows lack "spearman" capability, but fight at the same POA as the front rank. In this case the front rank have zero POA because there aren't 2 ranks with spear capability. So both ranks fight at 0 POA.

So, if the second rank bowmen have the swordsmen capability, they are still at 0 POA rather than +1?

Or an Unprotected LF bowmen behind an armoured legionnaire would get half a dice with ++ (armour advantage and skilled sword) against a Gaul?

In the first case you end up paying for something useless then.

José

Yes that's correct

Swordsmen in rear rank is useful ifhit in rear of if they have to fight in front rank somewhere.

Generally not worth points.

Not even sure they exist in the lists in fact. [Moderator note: see below]

Si

jre wrote:So, if the second rank bowmen have the swordsmen capability, they are still at 0 POA rather than +1?

Or an Unprotected LF bowmen behind an armoured legionnaire would get half a dice with ++ (armour advantage and skilled sword) against a Gaul?

In the first case you end up paying for something useless then.

José

Only if the list allows you to have a BG with front rank spear, back rank bow, swordsmen, which none of the lists do, with the sole exception of the Burgundian Ordonnance mixed units. These should be regarded as a failed experiment, they never won a battle historically and nobody bothered to copy them. The list does not oblige you to use them.

The main reason I asked are those eight painted double bases I have. In maybe five games with the Burgundians I have used the mixed formation once, and I was certainly underwhelmed by their ability. But paying for a protected and a swordsmen that will be of marginal use seems a waste.

It just seemed weird, as I still have the older version's mindset, when you counted individual bases rather than files.

What I like of the Burgundians is how different the Ordonnance is from the Medieval army, and both can be used with the same miniatures (and a Maximilian German).

José

wordsmen in rear rank is useful ifhit in rear of if they have to fight in front rank somewhere.

Generally not worth points.

Not even sure they exist in the lists in fact. [Moderator note: see below]

Don't know if this is the best place to post this but...

Neo Babylonians have mixed battlegroups, one of these is half MF, Bow, Light Spear, the other half is the same but without the Light Spear.

Since the Light Spear doesn't cost anything is it worth the extra hassle in this instance? Seems like a lot of palaver - i.e. remembering which front rank element has died (especially when mine are double based as they used to be Bw(X)).]

Can't we just assume they are the same?

dave_r wrote:Can't we just assume they are the same?

No, because they aren't. They are the FoG equivalent of (X)/(O) bows. Only the front rank(s) have spears. As you say, it only matters if the front rank bases are lost, but that is easy to spot if you depict the front rank with spears and back rank without. (As they would be already if they were painted for DBM).

shall wrote:

Point of advantage
page 48
In close combat, each front rank base uses its own POAs. Rear rank bases ( except support shooters in the impact phase) use the same as the front rank
So does it mean that a BG with a front line of spearmen and a second rank of archers, is granted by a + POA for two ranks of spearmen.

No it means the rear rank use the front rank POAs not that they are treated as if Spearmen.

So front rank spear gets a + if spearmen in 2 ranks, so with Bw bhind doesn't get it. Rear rank adds dice at an = POA therefore. So not as good as 2 ranks of Spear. But the STDY Sp will stll cancel some POAs against them. Much better therefreo than 2 ranks of Bowmen in combat.

Unless you are defensive spearmen with bow behind and charged by 2 ranks of defensive spearmen. Then 2 ranks of bow is better.