Slitherine

Having run two distinct campaigns (one of them still in motion) I found really annoying the task of envisaging every time some specific rule to determine the final outcome of naval encounters, substantially leaving the decisions to the luck of players in dice rolling or lottery draws.
No place was left for the ability of them given the fact that we lack a system apt to reproduce naval battles.

But, if you think a bit, the actual engine of FoG would be quite ideal to resolve also ship’s fights of the considered period (antiquity and middle ages).
- To the terrain feature it would suffice adding shallow and deep water, passable only by ships
- Experience, Drill and kind of Protection features match very well also with naval units
- Unit’s type should be increased with the different typology of ships (bireme, trireme, pentares, liburnae, dromon, drakkar ..)
- Ranged weapons aren’t a problem (bows, catapults, greek fire, guns ..)
- Melee weapons should represent the fighting abilities of boarding units, if present on the ship (hoplites, legionaries, marines, sailors ..)
- The mechanism of impact and melee combat should work finely, distinguishing between a ramming phase and a boarding one and envisaging a specific determination of naval POAs
- Evasion and disengagement (after the ramming phase) would suit perfectly to lighter units
- Disruption, Fragmentation and Rout correspond to Damaged, Crippled and Wrecked, while a Captured status could be added in order to represent a ship whose control have been taken by an opposite boarding party
- The movement mechanism is apt to represent also naval cruising, maybe adding a wind feature, specifying the direction of its blowing and accordingly enhancing or lowering the movement capability of a ship

Really a little work to be done with so many chances of attracting new players (also because games regarding naval warfare are extremely few)!
Why not trying?

Yes, I think it would work very well with FOG. And it could eventually be integrated into our campaign games. I would certainly buy Soggy FOG!

Of course, there would be a lot of work involved in producing a module like this and it would have to pass an "economic viability" test in the same way that extending FOG PC into the Renaissance period would. But I think if Slitherine were eventually able to produce a campaign editor and a naval editor that could be used together across both the Ancient and Medieval modules as well as in the Renaissance period then they could be onto a real winner.

One of the reasons there are so few naval wargames out there is because there's a fairly limited interest in them, so I doubt it would pass the bean-counters. Not to mention that it's a bit of a bastard to design a decent AI for them (or at least so I'm told).......
Probably because the situation is so fluid ........(sorry)

At any rate, is there a huge hole to be filled here?
I mean, the Peloponesian War, yes obviously. But aside from that?
I'll freely admit that my knowledge of naval warfare through the ages is....*ahem*.....fairly limited would be the polite term, but once we move into the Roman Era and all through the Dark Ages, I can't seem to think of major engagements where warships had anything other than a supporting/transporting role.

I'd rather have a campaign-engine with some sort of abstract representation of naval power instead of a separate naval game.
Hell, Crusader Kings II does away with it completely, allowing fleets to transport but not to fight, and that works fine.

CheerfullyInsane wrote:At any rate, is there a huge hole to be filled here?
I mean, the Peloponesian War, yes obviously. But aside from that?

I'm surprised that a Dane could ask a question like that, Lars! The Viking fleets were famous and you could make some wonderful scenarios featuring them (e.g. Western Isles). Also, there were many naval encounters in the 100YW, there were many naval battles in the Mediterranean right through the period including the Byzantine's efforts to defeat Gaiseric in North Africa in the 5thC through to the Genoese battling with the Venetians in the 14thC and then the Ottomans in the 15thC. So perhaps there is a bit more than you might think.

But having naval battles as a component of a campaign editor would also represent a big step forward so that would get my support too.

And we could add the naval encounters between the Diadochi and the Seleucids and Ptolemaics, the naval battles of the Roman Civil Wars, the Gothic naval raids of the 3rd century, the Vandals attacks on Sicily, Sardinia and Rome during the Vth and VIth centuries, the Arab raids and the Byzantines counterattack all along the VII-X century, the Normans sweeping through all the Mediterranean, the Russians and Khazars raids in the Black Sea, the Italian Maritime Republic fighting the Arabs and themselves and muc, much more ..

The first punic war saw some naval action too. I would snap up this expansion in a heartbeat, although I suspect I'm in the minority.

You'd have to factor in wind. And storms and sea monsters.

the_iron_duke wrote:You'd have to factor in wind. And storms and sea monsters.

...and mermaids.

kilroy

In fact, since it would be a pitched battle rather than a campaign you could scrap the storms. But not the sea monsters.

stockwellpete wrote:

CheerfullyInsane wrote:At any rate, is there a huge hole to be filled here?
I mean, the Peloponesian War, yes obviously. But aside from that?

I'm surprised that a Dane could ask a question like that, Lars! The Viking fleets were famous and you could make some wonderful scenarios featuring them (e.g. Western Isles). Also, there were many naval encounters in the 100YW, there were many naval battles in the Mediterranean right through the period including the Byzantine's efforts to defeat Gaiseric in North Africa in the 5thC through to the Genoese battling with the Venetians in the 14thC and then the Ottomans in the 15thC. So perhaps there is a bit more than you might think.

But having naval battles as a component of a campaign editor would also represent a big step forward so that would get my support too.

Granted, but Viking raiders would probably not be a very good background for ship-to-ship warfare. Far as I know (which admittedly isn't saying much) Viking raids consisted mainly of getting people ashore and THEN murdering (or rape and then murder) whoever happened to be on the receiving end.
And even though Alfred did build a fleet to stop the incursions, there was very little fighting. The Vikings, being very pragmatic creatures, simply moved on to easier pickings.

Much the same for the Mediterranean battles, even though we now move into a period of which I'm even less knowledgeable than usual.
I'm sure there was fighting at sea, but AFAIK these were more battles to protect trade-routes rather than warfare aimed at the destruction of the enemy. And while I'm sure they could be interesting battles in their own right, I don't really see the need for integrating them with a game on land-warfare.
Once (if) we move into the 17th century, then I could see the point.

kilroy wrote:

the_iron_duke wrote:You'd have to factor in wind. And storms and sea monsters.

...and mermaids.

kilroy

Sea monsters?
Mermaids?
Aw hell, throw in a siren or two and I'm game.

CheerfullyInsane wrote: Granted, but Viking raiders would probably not be a very good background for ship-to-ship warfare. Far as I know (which admittedly isn't saying much) Viking raids consisted mainly of getting people ashore and THEN murdering (or rape and then murder) whoever happened to be on the receiving end.

Well, there are some Viking naval battles that might work well as scenarios - and it would be an excuse to delve into the sagas for a while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hafrsfjord

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... av%C3%A1gr

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Svolder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nesjar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Helge%C3%A5

http://alancaster149.hubpages.com/hub/C ... ly-Niggles

And here you may find a list of the most famous sea battle of the Antiquity and the Middle Ages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_naval_battles

I love the age of oars and would like to see this as well. The creators of FoG originally said they might eventually come out with a combined naval war and campaign book, but I haven't heard anything more in years.

Deeter

Since it has been made clear many times that project development resources are stretched to the limit, I would like to see those resources that are available be used to get the first FoG game fixed before venturing out to sea. Not that I wouldn't find "Sea of Glory" interesting, I would much rather see the FoG rewrite completed and then resumption of producing the DAG extensions that were cancelled.

Ah yes, the old Trireme game by AH was fun to play. I never played the GMT Games GBOH volume on the naval battles.

Frankly the naval battles were not like Wooden Ships and Iron Men. More like Demolition Derby!