Slitherine

Is it intentional that undrilled heavy foot cannot contract in anything othr than good going?

For undrilled to contract they have to advance 3 MU's but in anything other than good going heavy foot only move 2 MU's

Hammy

hammy wrote:Is it intentional that undrilled heavy foot cannot contract in anything othr than good going?

For undrilled to contract they have to advance 3 MU's but in anything other than good going heavy foot only move 2 MU's

This has been pointed out before. We are happy with it.

It deliberate contract before you get there

Si

What about ud hf that end up fighting the terrain and want to get out again?

What about battle wagons that can't contract even in open terrain?

sagji wrote:What about ud hf that end up fighting the terrain and want to get out again?

Move out of the terrain then contract later. (They can turn 90 or 180 degree so are unlikely to be stuck)

What about battle wagons that can't contract even in open terrain?

Battle wagons have a 3 MU move, so they can contract.

rbodleyscott wrote:

sagji wrote:What about ud hf that end up fighting the terrain and want to get out again?

Move out of the terrain then contract later. (They can turn 90 or 180 degree so are unlikely to be stuck)

So you think they would turn 180, move twice turn 180 contract and move (taking about 8 turns) to form column to advance through the terrain they have cleared rather than slowing forming column?
A 90 turn and wheel works only if they are no more than 2 deep - so if they have supporting LF, are pike, or never got completely out of the column they were in to get into the terrain,

What about battle wagons that can't contract even in open terrain?

Battle wagons have a 3 MU move, so they can contract.

The requirement is a 3MU simple advance - BW have no simple moves and elsewhere the rules say that BW can't make a second move because they have no simple moves.

sagji wrote:

What about battle wagons that can't contract even in open terrain?

Battle wagons have a 3 MU move, so they can contract.

The requirement is a 3MU simple advance - BW have no simple moves and elsewhere the rules say that BW can't make a second move because they have no simple moves.

Ouch. We will need to give some thought to sorting that out. The intention is that they should be able to contract when moving forward.

Any suggestions for rewording?

sagji wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote:

sagji wrote:What about ud hf that end up fighting the terrain and want to get out again?

Move out of the terrain then contract later. (They can turn 90 or 180 degree so are unlikely to be stuck)

So you think they would turn 180, move twice turn 180 contract and move (taking about 8 turns) to form column to advance through the terrain they have cleared rather than slowing forming column?
A 90 turn and wheel works only if they are no more than 2 deep - so if they have supporting LF, are pike, or never got completely out of the column they were in to get into the terrain,

No doubt I am missing something again, but why do they need to be in column to enter or move in the terrain?

rbodleyscott wrote:

sagji wrote:

Battle wagons have a 3 MU move, so they can contract.

The requirement is a 3MU simple advance - BW have no simple moves and elsewhere the rules say that BW can't make a second move because they have no simple moves.

Ouch. We will need to give some thought to sorting that out. The intention is that they should be able to contract when moving forward.

Any suggestions for rewording?

1) change it to an easy advance - specific line on the chart.
2) say that Art & BW need to pass a CMT to move, but that it doesn't make the move complex - this also allows 2nd moves.
3) add an extra contraction move - advance full move straight forward and contract 1 base width - this also allows ud hf to contract in terrain.

rbodleyscott wrote:

sagji wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote: Move out of the terrain then contract later. (They can turn 90 or 180 degree so are unlikely to be stuck)

So you think they would turn 180, move twice turn 180 contract and move (taking about 8 turns) to form column to advance through the terrain they have cleared rather than slowing forming column?
A 90 turn and wheel works only if they are no more than 2 deep - so if they have supporting LF, are pike, or never got completely out of the column they were in to get into the terrain,

No doubt I am missing something again, but why do they need to be in column to enter or move in the terrain?

Because thay move so slowly in terrain that unless they are in column they will effectivly play no further part in the battle.

For battle wagons we propose:

• Light artillery and battle wagons must pass a CMT to carry out any move, whether simple or complex.

As you say this will allow them 2nd moves. We need to decide whether or not we want them to have to take a second CMT for a 2nd move, and amend the rules accordingly.

sagji wrote:Because thay move so slowly in terrain that unless they are in column they will effectivly play no further part in the battle.

I submit that if they have gone into difficult terrain that is the player's own fault.

In uneven/rough they move 2 MUs (or 4 MUs if no enemy left), which seems adequate.

I prefer the proposed wording for the battle wagons and artillery moves. I believe it is easier to remember that you have to dice to move these troops than to have to think about what is an easy, simple or complex move. I don't really see why they should not get second moves. It keeps them consistent with everything else and the same logic must apply.

From the ease of play point of view, a second dice roll is not a problem. I suppose it will have to be explicitly stated that they will have to have successfully diced and moved for their first move before they can dice again for a second.

rogerg wrote:I prefer the proposed wording for the battle wagons and artillery moves. I believe it is easier to remember that you have to dice to move these troops than to have to think about what is an easy, simple or complex move. I don't really see why they should not get second moves. It keeps them consistent with everything else and the same logic must apply.

From the ease of play point of view, a second dice roll is not a problem. I suppose it will have to be explicitly stated that they will have to have successfully diced and moved for their first move before they can dice again for a second.

Good point

OK, how about this then?

P.18 SIMPLE AND COMPLEX MOVES

• Light artillery and battle wagons must pass a CMT to carry out any move, whether simple or complex.

P.38 SECOND MOVES

• Light artillery and battle wagons must pass a second CMT to make a second move. They can only do so after first passing a CMT for, and making, a first move.

Seems pretty unambiguous to me.

Pete

I like it.

Two potential issues:

How many rolls are made to make a complex move?
1 or 2 (pass a CMT to move, then pass another CMT to make a complex move)

When moving for a 2nd time a general moving with the BG or BL can't influence the CMT as he has moved.


Personally I think they should not have to roll to make a 2nd move - once they are "limbered up" to move then keeping moving is easy, and if they are sufficiently far from the enemy to move twice they may have been "limbered up" at the start of the turn.

sagji wrote:Two potential issues:

How many rolls are made to make a complex move?
1 or 2 (pass a CMT to move, then pass another CMT to make a complex move)

I think it is clear from

Light artillery and battle wagons must pass a CMT to carry out any move, whether simple or complex.

that only one is required.

When moving for a 2nd time a general moving with the BG or BL can't influence the CMT as he has moved.

This is a problem.

sagji wrote:When moving for a 2nd time a general moving with the BG or BL can't influence the CMT as he has moved.

How about:

P.20 Points to note on the CMT.

 To be able to influence a CMT a commander must be with the testers from the start of the phase.

Personally I think they should not have to roll to make a 2nd move - once they are "limbered up" to move then keeping moving is easy, and if they are sufficiently far from the enemy to move twice they may have been "limbered up" at the start of the turn.

"Limbering up" is not the only issue. We want to reflect the general difficulty of moving war wagons across normal terrain.