Slitherine

Here's an interesting one.

1. You position a unit (15mm figures) exactly 60mm behind a square.
2. The square gets charged by enemy cavalry who, after combat, must 'pass through'
3. The enemy cavalry is placed on the far side of the square, now in contact with both back of the square and the front of the supporting unit.
4. What happens next?

My reading is that there will be an immediate 2nd combat against the new unit - They are caught in the first half of the pursuit move.
If the 'new unit' is infantry, it will not have to test for being charged by cavalry in the open (unless wavering) as it has been caught in the 1st half of a pursuit move. The new unit cannot fire nor form square.

The square will add its dice into this 2nd combat (being in contact with the rear of the pursuing cavalry).

The pursuing cavalry presumably will only get 4 dice for melee (fighting infantry in square) and will have to split its dice between the square and the new target. Assuming the cavalry lose the 2nd combat and are forced to retire, they will suffer an additional cohesion loss for enemy in contact with both flank and rear, and will stay in place.

Have I got this correct?

Cheers
Brett

Sounds cheesy to me.

I read it this way: They are placed on the far side of the square before making their pass through move and the pass through move is measured from there. There is insufficient space to make ANY pass through move, so they "must retire instead."

However, I think this will rarely happen since the Cavalry may come in at an off-angle or on a corner. Geometrically, there might not be room depending on how the Cavalry is translated to the edge or corner on the other side of the square. It might be simply that the Cavalry with unchanged facing in effect moves straight on through the square to the other side as if it was not there, but the rules only say "placed with their rear edge touching the enemy far edge (or corner)" and then they make their pass through move straight ahead. That opens possibilities.

I can only hope that you didn't get it right.

Far too "gamey", the square has fought (with ineffectual results) so why fight again ! If its 61mm then there is a completely different outcome. What if its 59mm ?

I think that the pursuit/passthrough move is afteer passing through. So the second infantry would lose cohesion ( charged by cav < 2MU).

paulbg wrote:I think that the pursuit/passthrough move is afteer passing through. So the second infantry would lose cohesion ( charged by cav < 2MU).

That loss applies only "if assaulted by cavalry starting from within 2 MU" which is not the case with the pass through. The assault started farther back.

Which makes game sense since the purpose of the rule is to keep infantry not in square from approaching cavalry too closely.

MikeK wrote:I read it this way: They are placed on the far side of the square before making their pass through move and the pass through move is measured from there. There is insufficient space to make ANY pass through move, so they "must retire instead."

Cheesy indeed. I guess you could justify it on the basis that the cavalry have flowed around the square, been caught in front of a second line after loosing their impetus, shot in the rear and sabre/shot in the front, and is basically doomed (ala French cavalry at Waterloo).

The rule is that cavalry "pass through them if there is space beyond ...The Cavalry are placed with their rear edge touching the enemy far edge (or corner) before making their pass through move. If there is insufficient space the Cavalry must retire instead."

It might be a bit of a stretch to interpret "space" to mean 'enough room to place the bases + 1mm'. However it maybe a useful stretch to avoid the 'square trap'.

Alternatively the cunning horsemen could simply wheel a fraction before charging as you say. Or maybe the square trap is a good thing to encourage 2nd lines?

Cheers
Brett

BrettPT wrote: Or maybe the square trap is a good thing to encourage 2nd lines?

And I fear discouraging players.

In fact, of course, with laser calipers a careful measurement would probably show that the bases are in fact too large or too small, or the distance at least a few microns off either way, thus preventing the trap from being sprung one way or the other.

Argh! I see shades of early DBM geometric logjams returning to haunt me.

p66 (on pursuit) "Enemy units contacted during the first the first half of a pursuit move cannot make a reaction move, nor may they fire. In addition, another Combat Phase occurs between the contacting units."

I suppose some people might argue that the term "contacting units", rather than the more ussual "units in contact", is deliberate and intended to limit the parties to the 2nd phase of combat to the pursuer and the newly contacted units. It seems a bit a stretch, but might also be relevant to the rare situations where a pursuer contacts a unit already in an indecisive combat from which no one retired.

Andy D

Combat Phase occurs between the contacting units.

Any additional combat can only be between units that were not in contact for the 1st combat - If the original 2 units are still in contact then they don't fight until next move.

An exact measurement of 60mm is a bit cheesy, and doesn't really fit in with a realistic assessment of what would have happened on the battlefiled. Is there any real difference between 59mm and 61mm in this scale? If the cavalry pass through infantry they don't fight them (the same unit) again, if they can't pass through then they retire.

Any additional combat can only be between units that were not in contact for the 1st combat - If the original 2 units are still in contact then they don't fight until next move.

Thanks Terry

The most common reason for me as umpire to be called to assist in the tournament we had over the weekend concerned pursuit.
Distilling your comments and the rules on pursuit could you please confirm if I have the following correct:

1. If pursuers 'catch' their retiring opponents in the first half of their pursuit, they don't fight until the following bound.

2. If pursuers catch the rear of their retiring opponents, the retiring troops drop a cohesion level, turn to face and (if not broken) fight next bound. They will be on a -/+ PoA for being assaulted in the rear.

3. A second round of combat only occurs if a new enemy unit is contacted in the first half of a pursuit move.

4. A new enemy unit can only be contacted if:
(a) you cannot reach the retiring unit with your pursuit move; and
(b) the new unit was within 2MU of the retiring unit's position at the end of combat, or within 2MU of its path of retirement

5. If a new unit is contacted in the first half of a pursuit:
(a) wavering units contacted must take a CT
(b) no other CTs or CMTs need be taken by the new unit contacted (ie infantry assualted by cavalry test, or skirmisher CMT to stand)
(c) a new infantry unit contacted by pursuing cavalry who started their pursuit within 2MU does not drop an automatic cohesion level.
(d) the new unit does not fire
(d) the new unit cannot change formation, countercharge or evade.

6. If any retiring unit (either the retiring unit or a new unit) is contacted in the 2nd half of the move, then they may not fire but otherwise react as if it was a normal assault. They may change formation, evade if skirmishers, countercharge if cavalry. They take any applicable CTs or CMTs for being charged or required by their reaction (ie mounted skirmishers who wish to stand).

7. If there is no new enemy within 2MU, or the pursuer does not wish to contact a new enemy, the pursuers chase the retiring unit following its path of retirement.

8. If a retiring unit's retirement move would reach the table edge or an enemy unit it cannot slide past, it stops 1MU away from the table edge or enemy unit. If already within 1MU of such obstruction at the start of the retirement move, the retiring unit does not move. There is no 2nd round of combat this turn however.

9. If a pursuing unit contacts a new enemy unit in the first half of its pursuit, and forces this new unit to retire as a result of the 2nd combat, the pursuing unit makes a 2nd pursuit move if eligible, but will not fight a 3rd combat as a result of this pursuit.

Have I got all that correct?
Cheers
Brett

terrys wrote:

Combat Phase occurs between the contacting units.

Any additional combat can only be between units that were not in contact for the 1st combat - If the original 2 units are still in contact then they don't fight until next move.

Even as the result of a pursuit move?

p 66 2nd bullet on left. says "Enemy Units" and does not appear to rule out a 2nd round