Slitherine

I want to do a classical Greek 650 pt Theban army with:

4 BGs of 6 protected, avg, drilled hoplitesN
1 BG of 6 armored, superior, drilled hoplites
2 BGs of 6 armored, avg, drilled cavalry
2 BGs of 8 peltasts
1 Inspired commander
2 Troop commandersf

My general plan to attack in tourney battles will be to mimic epimonondas and go top heavy on one flank with the sacred band leading the way. alternatively, an Alexandrian/Fredrician oblique order attack looks attractive.
In defense I plan to present a solid line with the sacred band in reserve to plug the gaps.

Obliviously, the cavalry and peltasts can be used to harass or protect flanks, but those troops can be flexible as the situation permits.
I'm not sure how well hoplite armies fair in FOG, but I saw them get routinely smashed by all comers in DBM, so I never went with one. Not sure how well it fairs against pikes. I think my biggest problem would be and English HYW army or an elite later republican army. Other than that it looks pretty solid.

I think the two 6's of cav are a mistake. Would minimize this to one 4 pak and consider them as a skirmisher. Protected hoplites are not so common, and I like the armoured earlier version better.

I like armour on my HF too, also cv in groups of 4 work better.

I would have rather had armor, but I like the idea of drilled better. Three groups of 4 cav is doable, I can just put two groups on the business end of the army and one holding back the other flank

Etruscan for armoured and drilled.

The whole idea was I wanted Thebans

More interested in if my strategy to use them is viable for what I have.....
Of course the armored guys will be the spearhead of the assault, everybody else needs to be able to manuever easily. Being unable to wheel and roll up a flank after having smashed a flank in defeats the whole point don't it?

With infantry (and sometimes knights) you can get away with less drilled troops than you might think.
In most cases you only need drilled troops on the flanks or as reserves (drilled reserves make a break through more likely and are good for taking advantage of it).

CutEmUp wrote:Being unable to wheel and roll up a flank after having smashed a flank in defeats the whole point don't it?

Well, I admire your optimism in planning to smash a flank with protected average spear

It's all about armour, I'm afraid. Although it may improve in v2.

Of course, you can always try both. Only a purist would notice the difference between a 5th and a 4th century hoplite.

I plan to smash a flank with superior armored spear with two or three protected average units behind it to turn in on flanks once we've gone through. Of course I want to use the peltasts and cav to help that along. If we are completely overmatched in cavalry (knight armies etc, then probably time to take a defensive stance.

Maybe I ought to have 3 armored undrilled as my battle line, 1 armored superior drilled as my shock force and then two protected drilled as my follow on force.

After that it would look like

1 BG of 6 superior armored drilled hoplites
2 BGs of 6 average protected drilled hoplites
2 BGs of 8 average armored undrilled hoplites
2 BGs of 4 average, armored drilled cav
2 BG of 6 peltasts

CutEmUp wrote:I plan to smash a flank with superior armored spear with two or three protected average units behind it to turn in on flanks once we've gone through.

With the army size you are talking about you will need pretty much all of your hoplites in the battle line, otherwise you will be quickly outflanked. If your frontage of decent troops is only 3 BGs of 6/8 armoured hoplites, that's only a frontage of 9 - 11 base widths, or about one quarter to a fifth of a 6 foot table.

CutEmUp wrote: If we are completely overmatched in cavalry

With two BGs of average Cavalry I would expect to always be completely overmatched in cavalry !

Bad Guy Line --------------------Bad Guy Line---------------Bad Guy Line




Peltasts------^------------^-----------^--------Peltasts
Cavalry Hoplites Hoplites Hoplites. Cavalry
----------- Hoplites
----------- Hoplites

Go ahead, take half your army away from the real fighting by trying to get around my flank.
The two right hand hoplite units will stop along the way and present a staggered flank....while you're wheeling around that I'll have punched through, wheeled right and have a solid battle line rolling up your flank. At least that's the theory Im testing out. Remember, this is only 650 points. Obviously at 800 I'd have a bit more cav.

Let's say my peltasts and cavalry get shattered, pretty likely, I can always pull up that third rank of hoplites to help on the left.

I think you should keep this army to themed competitions, even at 650pts. Anyone with decent Cav/LH will just pick on your peltasts and cavalry, then take out your camp. Protected 6's of Hoplites are not going to get anywhere fast enough to help unless you have a 4 foot wide table.

CutEmUp wrote: Bad Guy Skirmishers ----Bag Guy Armoured foot with spoons-----Bad Guy Lancers--------Bad Guy Mounted outflaking you and rolling you up.

non-fighting Peltasts---------^--------------^-------------^-------------run over by lancers Peltasts
useless Cavalry wasted Hoplites beaten Hoplites outflanked Hoplites Outflanked and outnumbered Cavalry
----------- wasted Hoplites
----------- wasted Hoplites

-----------sacked camp

......not so clever now general

Is that what you meant?

for 648 would be a bit more competetive. But if you play for fun whoo cares. Your cav can support your average hoplites and react to flank threats or work on any breakthrough the hoplites make by getting through any gap created much more quickly

madaxeman wrote:

CutEmUp wrote: Bad Guy Skirmishers ----Bag Guy Armoured foot with spoons-----Bad Guy Lancers--------Bad Guy Mounted outflaking you and rolling you up.

non-fighting Peltasts---------^--------------^-------------^-------------run over by lancers Peltasts
useless Cavalry wasted Hoplites beaten Hoplites outflanked Hoplites Outflanked and outnumbered Cavalry
----------- wasted Hoplites
----------- wasted Hoplites

-----------sacked camp

......not so clever now general

Is that what you meant?

You don't get it......

For one....you want all those expensive troops that ain't gonna be there at 650....for two my whole line did a 90% turn and is now facing right I'm afraid that unless they are drilled you're going to have to wade through CMT's, if you have the command structure to do that and you'll wind up with a glorious charge into thin air.....the hope is that I'll have smashed your foot, which there can't be too many of and be rolling up your flank with my heavy end. I'll give you that my camp is vulnerable, I would have to put my cav and a unit of peltasts on your cav flank as a speed bump

When I hit, it should look like:

Bad guy line ----------Bad guy line
Peltasts----Hoplites
-------------Hoplites
-------------Hoplites
-----------------------Hoplites
----------------------------------Hoplites
---------------------------------------------Hoplites-----Bad guy lancers whiffing
-----------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------Cavalry--Cavalry
-----------Camp-------------------------------Peltasts

My two southernmost Hoplites can wheel 90 degrees and start backing up as you massacre my cavalry

so you have a single BG of hoplites double overlapped ready to burst through the 2 supports when it breaks?

And your plan relies on your enemy waiting and doing what you want.

Hoplites are very unmanoueverable. They are also shock so can be pulled out of line.

It really depends on who you are playing. However letting your cav and peltasts be speed bumped and then your baggage be taken means you are at 8/9 from breaking.....a good mounted player will than find it trivial to close the door on one hoplite bg, and much faster than your hoplites breakthrough and turn the line.

If you are doing historical games at 650 (which would mean other hoplites armies) than it's different as your mounted can do the job. But a typical classical era tourney will likely have several armies that will simply eat this up.

Ian