Slitherine

I am working on this strategy article for GSv2.10. I've just completed my introduction and thought I'd post it hear for review and comment. I plan to include several examples from on-going or past games to reinforce or illustrate the claims that I've made in the introduction. I do feel strongly based on my playtesting experience that the naval model in GSv2.10 plays very historically.

rkr1958 wrote:This first, is that subs are now much more lethal to unescorted convoys (i.e., convoys which are not adjacent to warship escorts) and the second (and most important)

I must have missed it somewhere. So if convoy is adjacent to friendly warship than special sub formula for inflicting losses is not used?

I can't wait to see your examples.

rkr1958 wrote:I am working on this strategy article for GSv2.10. I've just completed my introduction and thought I'd post it hear for review and comment. I plan to include several examples from on-going or past games to reinforce or illustrate the claims that I've made in the introduction. I do feel strongly based on my playtesting experience that the naval model in GSv2.10 plays very historically.

I agree 100%. You might also say something to the effect that the Allies can build enough destroyers to almost completely dominate the Atlantic by 1942-43. The subs have to move to different areas and actively seek out places where the Allies don't have coverage. This is very historical as well. And if a player chooses not to do that, we can't blame the game.

joerock22 wrote:

rkr1958 wrote:I am working on this strategy article for GSv2.10. I've just completed my introduction and thought I'd post it hear for review and comment. I plan to include several examples from on-going or past games to reinforce or illustrate the claims that I've made in the introduction. I do feel strongly based on my playtesting experience that the naval model in GSv2.10 plays very historically.

I agree 100%. You might also say something to the effect that the Allies can build enough destroyers to almost completely dominate the Atlantic by 1942-43. The subs have to move to different areas and actively seek out places where the Allies don't have coverage. This is very historical as well. And if a player chooses not to do that, we can't blame the game.

I'm going to use our game as one of the examples. In that game, I pretty much control the Atlantic; except in the south for now , and the Med. So I've met the necessary condition for victory. However; you're dominating me on land and I'm going to lose. The only thing that remains in doubt (I believe) is what level of victory your will achieve. The fact that the level of victory that you will achieve is still in doubt is a testimony to the fact that I pretty control the seas and oceans; except for the Baltic and Black seas.

I've never built so many DDs in any CEAW game. Don't you think it's a bit excessive? I think it's impractical to defend everything and if you have high ASW and Radar techs, you can use 2-3 DDs per convoy instead of 3-4 DDs. Even if one of your DDs gets mauled or destroyed, the Axis will have to pay for it. Forcing u-boats to return to ports is an effective way of dealing with the threat, because the trip will take 2-3 turns and repairing/upgrading will take another 1-2 turn(s). That's 3-5 turns of respite, not including the time needed to find convoys.

Cybvep wrote:I've never built so many DDs in any CEAW game. Don't you think it's a bit excessive?

No, not really. Have you ever played against players like Joe Rock, Borger or Neil? They're probably among the best, if not the best, defensive players in the game. Try to skimp on escorts against them and they will definitely make you pay. Using only 2 DD's per escort against them is a receipt for getting a DD sunk and your convoy mauled. And, so what if a sub takes 2 or 3-steps of damage attacking a DD. They can repair that sub at sea in 2 to 3 turns. DD's have to return to port to repair.

I'm not an elite player, but how do you plan to stop the Axis in 1942-1943 if you spend so much on DDs? 1 DD is almost 1 MECH. It's hard to defend as the Soviets against a good Axis player if the western Allies won't help them.

rkr1958 wrote:

Cybvep wrote:I've never built so many DDs in any CEAW game. Don't you think it's a bit excessive?

No, not really. Have you ever played against players like Joe Rock, Borger or Neil? They're probably among the best, if not the best, defensive players in the game. Try to skimp on escorts against them and they will definitely make you pay. Using only 2 DD's per escort against them is a receipt for getting a DD sunk and your convoy mauled. And, so what if a sub takes 2 or 3-steps of damage attacking a DD. They can repair that sub at sea in 2 to 3 turns. DD's have to return to port to repair.

According to my (limited) experience concerning the "tougher" DDs makes it really difficult to sink a DD with SUBs. Even with four SUBs it is not 100 % sure to sink one DD (with about equal tech advancement) and the SUBs will suffer also some damage. To engage a convoy escorted with two DD you will need at least five SUBs to kill the DD and "maul" the transport, i.e. the Axis player will need a really have strong SUB force ready to strike and it will cost him some PPs as well.

Cybvep wrote:I'm not an elite player, but how do you plan to stop the Axis in 1942-1943 if you spend so much on DDs? 1 DD is almost 1 MECH. It's hard to defend as the Soviets against a good Axis player if the western Allies won't help them.

It's not the Soviets that are spending PP's on their navy. It's the western allies. As the western allies you help the USSR in 1942-1943 by making sure the Murmansk convoy gets through, taking care of North Africa and then knocking Italy out of the war. Also, you help them by bombing targets in Germany.

By the way, the cost of the DD's is more than offset by the convoys that you get through; especially in the early war. In my opinion, building DD's that protect convoys more than pays for themselves. That is, building DD's actually results in a net PP gain.

zechi wrote:

rkr1958 wrote:

Cybvep wrote:I've never built so many DDs in any CEAW game. Don't you think it's a bit excessive?

No, not really. Have you ever played against players like Joe Rock, Borger or Neil? They're probably among the best, if not the best, defensive players in the game. Try to skimp on escorts against them and they will definitely make you pay. Using only 2 DD's per escort against them is a receipt for getting a DD sunk and your convoy mauled. And, so what if a sub takes 2 or 3-steps of damage attacking a DD. They can repair that sub at sea in 2 to 3 turns. DD's have to return to port to repair.

According to my (limited) experience concerning the "tougher" DDs makes it really difficult to sink a DD with SUBs. Even with four SUBs it is not 100 % sure to sink one DD (with about equal tech advancement) and the SUBs will suffer also some damage. To engage a convoy escorted with two DD you will need at least five SUBs to kill the DD and "maul" the transport, i.e. the Axis player will need a really have strong SUB force ready to strike and it will cost him some PPs as well.

You don't have to sink the DD in one go. All you need to do is maul it and stop the convoy. Then you can finish off the DD (if it stays around) the next turn and continue the attack on the convoy.

rkr1958 wrote:

Cybvep wrote:I'm not an elite player, but how do you plan to stop the Axis in 1942-1943 if you spend so much on DDs? 1 DD is almost 1 MECH. It's hard to defend as the Soviets against a good Axis player if the western Allies won't help them.

It's not the Soviets that are spending PP's on their navy. It's the western allies. As the western allies you help the USSR in 1942-1943 by making sure the Murmansk convoy gets through, taking care of North Africa and then knocking Italy out of the war. Also, you help them by bombing targets in Germany.

It may often not be enough, especially in 1942. The Germans can really punish the Soviets in 1941-1942 now. It's not uncommon to lose Leningrad and/or Stalingrad and if the Axis player is good, he will also obliterate your army.