Slitherine

First attempt at a historical OOB - Fuentes de Onoro.

Notes:
1. French generals have been kept as no better than competent in the main due to generally accepted view that they lacked vigour or enthusiasm on the day.
2. Attachments are listed against British division or French corps, largely because I don't have the info to be more specific.
3. French VIII corps had just one division present, so Junot is both corps and divisional commander. Ditto for Army of the North (Bessieres).

What's your source(s) for the OOBs?


Jimi

For the French army I've used Koch's '1st May 1811 situation' and 'ordre de bataille' (Memoires de Andre Massena). However there are other sources available. None of them are consistent with each other.

Oman for Anglo-Allied forces.

I don't claim to have done the original research. But its available off the net.

I agree with the inconsistent issue - you gotta use a variety of sources to shoe-horn a decent OOB out of them.

I have a variety of books for the Napoleonic period - the ever-popular Ospreys, Nafziger. Chandler, Haythornthwaite, Weller, Oman, etc, etc.

The Peninsular is my main Napoleonic period, but I do dabble in the 1812 campaign.

Would you mind if I critique your OOBs and offer my own up for comment?


Jimi

Could you include points?

Not a problem.


Jimi

I'd welcome critique. Its why I posted. And to encourage others to post more OOB's.

AlanCutner wrote:I'd welcome critique. Its why I posted. And to encourage others to post more OOB's.

Excellent start. I plan to follow suit when I have time.

I would include regiment names where applicable for historical color.
I might post in word not in an image so it is easier for others to copy out.

I started with intention of including regimental names. But too many brigades are mergers of regiments and battalions - so overall strength of a brigade was the determining factor. Even deciding between light and line infantry was a matter of judgement.

For Fuentes de Onoro the distinction between veteran and drilled was pretty simple (probably harder with other battles). Eg. most of the French formations were hardened veterans of the wars in central Europe, whilst IX corps was made up of 4th battalions so I've assumed less battle experience.

How can you insert a table in to this, got one but can't seem to get it right.

Dave

Stored my tables as images as loaded them that way.

Westphalian VIII Corps 23 August 1812

Commander in Chief Junot - Competent

Corps cavalry-Generalmajor Hammerstein - Skilled

24th Light Cavalry Brigade
1 x 4 Base, 1st Hussar Regt(4)* (30/408)** Light Cavalry Average Drilled
1 x 4 Base, 2nd Hussar Regt(4) (28/428) Light Cavalry Average Drilled

Guard cavalry Brigade
1 x 4 Bases, Guard Chevauxleger Regt (4) (31/397) Light Cavalry Average Drilled Guard Lancers

23rd Division-Generallieutenant Jean Victor, Baron Tharreau Skilled
1st Brigade
3 x 4 Bases, 2nd Line (3 Btn)(59/1568)(2x6Pdr) Line Infantry Averade Drilled
2 x 4 Bases, 6th Line (2Btn)(41/1241)(2x 6Pdr) Line Infantry Poor Drilled
1 x 4 Base, 3rd Light bat(1) (19/569) Light Infantry Average Drilled
2nd Brigade
2 x 4 Bases, 3rd Line (2Btns)(37/1138)(2x6Pdr) Line Infantry Average Drilled
3 x 4 Bases, 7th Line (3Btns)(58/1417)(2x6Pdr) Line Infantry Poor Drilled
1 x 4 Base, 2nd Light (1Btn)(20/583) Light Infantry Average Drilled
Artillery
1st Foot Battery 4 x 6Pds,2 x How(4/208) 1 x Attached artillery

24th Division-Generallieutenant Adam Ludwig Baron von Ochs-Competent
1st Brigade
1 x 4 Base, Grenadier Guards(1Btn) (25/628)2x6Pdrs, Guard Infantry Average Drilled Guard
1 x 4 Base, Guard Jagers (1Btn)(25/628) Guard Light Infantry Average Drilled Guard
1 x 4 Base, Jager Karbiniers (1Btn) (23/452) Guard Light Infantry Average Drilled Guard
Guard Foot Art Battery Brunig (2x6Pdr)
1 x Artillery attachement
2nd Brigade
1 x 4 Bases, 1st Light btn (1Btn)(19/569) Light Infantry Poor Drilled
2 x 4 Bases, 5th Line(2Btn)(37/1172) Line Infantry Poor Drilled

Artillery
1st Horse Battery (5/167)6 x 6Pdr 2 x How, 1 x 3 Bases Medium Artillery Average Drilled
2nd Foot Battery 6x6Pdr,2x How) (3/178)
Corps Artillery Reserve
1 x 2 Bases, 1st Heavy Foot Battery (6x12Pdr 4 x How, see above

*Squadron or Battalion numbers present
**Officers/men Present

Have rated the Infantry and Light Infantry from the dates they were raised and what actions I could find that they were involved in.

References:
"Napoleon's Invasion of Russia," George F. Nafziger
"Armies of 1812" Otto Von Pivka
"With Eagles to Glory" John H Gill
"Napoleons German Allies 1 Westfalia and Kleve-Berg"
Various internet sites for Commanders

Initial comment. You appear to have converted single artillery batteries each to an artillery unit. Typically an artillery unit should represent two batteries. That can be solved by sharing the corps artillery amongst the divisions, or having divisional batteries at attachments instead.

AlanCutner wrote:Initial comment. You appear to have converted single artillery batteries each to an artillery unit. Typically an artillery unit should represent two batteries. That can be solved by sharing the corps artillery amongst the divisions, or having divisional batteries at attachments instead.

True your right got them mixed up keep forgetting they arn't one battery in FOG N, amended as suggested

David,

I am a little confused by your OB for the Westphalian VII Corps, it looks like the number of stands you are using for each unit are for a battalion level game rather then a Brigade level game. Take for example your 23rd Division 1st Bde. You say it has 3500 men, this would just be 2 small (4 stand) units only not 6 units as you have listed. 2nd Bde likewise: 2 small units.

So the total 23rd Infantry Div would have 4 small (4 stand) units with a single artillery attachment. Refer to page 110.

John

Johndeterreneuve wrote:David,

I am a little confused by your OB for the Westphalian VII Corps, it looks like the number of stands you are using for each unit are for a battalion level game rather then a Brigade level game. Take for example your 23rd Division 1st Bde. You say it has 3500 men, this would just be 2 small (4 stand) units only not 6 units as you have listed. 2nd Bde likewise: 2 small units.

So the total 23rd Infantry Div would have 4 small (4 stand) units with a single artillery attachment. Refer to page 110.

John

You are quite right of course. I have the same Nafziger list in front of me. As we say when building from a historical order of battle total the brigade strengths if available . The total Westphalian contingent in 1812 was around 17,000 men so only a small Corps. Our lists in the first book are more generous
( 1809 and 1812) as national army lists. One needs to do a top down check against page 110 when you have assembled a historical army as opposed to working from the lists as the sum of the parts may well exceed the historical whole.

In game terms there is practical consideration too. If you have too many units in a Division your commander will have great difficulty with CMTs and Cohesion tests not having enough Command points for the former - even if skilled - and only one Divisional commander to rally a single unit in a division ( or two if their Corps commander is in range) in your active turn is problematic if he has too many .

I experienced this yesterday with a five unit Austrian cavalry Division ( 1805) led by a competent general , where for a while every unit was at least disrupted for several turns ( even though several unspent) and the opposition was able to degrade them faster than I could rally them despite having three veteran units - (3 dice). The French had several superior units ( so re rolling ones) as well as veterans and a charismatic Corps commander (Murat) with an extra dice when rallying so were rallying theirs faster than I could mine. Even starting with a Cavalry Corps with two more cavalry good units than the French Corps and the advantage of ground ( uphill) I still got trounced. They had more horse arty too - 2:1. The moral for me was more is not better in terms of units unless you handle reserves much better than I did and/or have more command in terms of Divisions and their commanders which can be better value than extra average units .

This was a multi player historical refight ( Austerlitz) so to a large extent these ORBATs were predetermined and I drew up both sides' orbats not knowing which side I would be on ( another lesson!). And one was fighting the French at their very best - Average drilled cavalry simply not to be found.

Quite agree with you it is a lot harder than i thought... Its like the 24th with the guards can sort out the Light Foot but what do you do with the Grendier Battalion. Still working and will put another one on asap.

Dave

david53 wrote:Quite agree with you it is a lot harder than i thought... Its like the 24th with the guards can sort out the Light Foot but what do you do with the Grendier Battalion. Still working and will put another one on asap.

Dave

It's always a challenge to represent an actual orbat within a given rules set. One thing I like about FoG(N) is that there's a lot of flexibility with "attachments".

Looking at the 24th Division, there's a few options:

Using the figures you provided, the brigade strengths are 1,781 (1st brigade of which 1128 are lights) and 1,797 (2nd brigade of which 588 are lights). Artillery consists of 2 batteries of 6 guns.

This means that the division should be represented by 2 small units of 4 bases. The artillery can either be kept as a positional battery (small artillery unit of 2 bases) or used in direct support of the brigade(s) as an attachment. Since no brigade consists entirely of light infantry, probably the most accurate would be to have a skirmisher attachment for each brigade to represent the high proportion of light infantry in each brigade. In terms of figures that could mean that the first brigade could be represented with 2 bases of grenadiers, 1 base of lights plus 1 base of skirmisher lights. There's no reason all bases in the same FoG unit have to be represented as the same historical unit. You could do the same for the 2nd brigade (i.e., 2 bases of line infantry, 1 base of light infantry and 1 base of skirmisher lights) or go with 3 bases of line infantry and 1 base of skirmishing lights.

Of course, if you wanted to "bend" the brigade compositions and just look at the overall divisional strengths in terms of line and light infantry, the division has 1,862 line infantry and 1,716 light infantry which, again, would mean two small units, one line and one light infantry. You could in this case represent the line unit with 2 bases of grenadiers and 2 bases of line infantry. One problem with this option is that it allows the Westphalian division to have one brigade that could deploy entirely in skirmish formation which is not quite right....unless one's view is that the grenadiers could / would entirely deploy as skirmishers.

My preference would 1 unit with 2 bases of grenadiers, 1 base of Guard Jagers (or Jager Karabiniers) and 1 base of skirmishing Guard Jagers (or Jager Karabiniers) and 1 unit with 2 bases of the 5th line and 1 regular base and 1 skirmishing base of the 1st light battalion.

Just some ideas. Good luck with your project.