Slitherine

Fortress Europa - Improved

Well, here we are again. I have chosen to re-visit my strategy of a defensive germany against Russia. The reasons being 2 fold, 1- because i never finished the other game, 2- because i believe its the best shot for the Axis to win a major victory.

First of all, i looked back at my other game and i decided to adjust my strategy a little bit.

1- I noticed that my revenue was to low during the game.
2- I built my fleet to early int he game adn should have concentrated more on Russia
3- Not having control of Gibraltar and Suez was a huge disadvantage
4- Once the fighting starts in the east, most of my revenue was be dedicated to it.
5- I didnt have enough fighters
6- My fleet didnt contain enough Destroyers
7- Italy is very weak, even in a defensive strategy mode, the only way to take care of that problem is to take Suez and Gibraltar.
8- I didnt "break enough russians" in 1942 to keep them off-balance

So i decided to go for the following strategy:

1- Take control of ALL EUROPE, and also have Spain swtich to the Axis sides, to maximise revenue.
2- Take control of Gibraltar
3- Join the 3 Axis fleet (Spanish, Italian and german) as soon as possible and station them either in England or MED (still needs to be decided)
3- Build the Axis fleet later in the game (mid 1942).
4- Potential landing / offensive fall 1942
5- 1942 Summer offensive in the North to "break some russians" and also relieve pressure on the Finns for them to last the winter 1942-1943
6- Then the rest of the game will be dedicated to react to allied move since from 1943 we should loose the initiative.

Very interesting AAR, I have doing that same strategy in a PBEM game, v2.0, but I am still in early 1941. I have delayed Sealion until now because I have been very busy in North Africa (still one city in Allied control) and fencing off the 8th army in Lybia. I would be interested in you briefly outlining the sequence of your campaigns up to the present, you seem to have been exceptionally succesful!

Aryaman wrote:Very interesting AAR, I have doing that same strategy in a PBEM game, v2.0, but I am still in early 1941. I have delayed Sealion until now because I have been very busy in North Africa (still one city in Allied control) and fencing off the 8th army in Lybia. I would be interested in you briefly outlining the sequence of your campaigns up to the present, you seem to have been exceptionally succesful!

Ok, the sequences was as follows:

Early blitz of Belgium / Netherland (surrender on turn 2 and turn 3) and early blitz of France. Poland surrendered on turn 3 or 4.
Grinding campaign in France till june 1940, war declaration on Yougoslavia in may 1940 (attacked from Italy and southern Germany)
Greece conquered fall 1940 in fair/mud weather (depending on the hexe, the clear one were fair)
Norway/Denmark invaded while still mopping up northern England first and second turn of fair weather 1941.
Invasion of Britiain before France surrendered in may 1940, london fell somewhere in July.
North-African campaing as early as possible from the time of the Italian entry into the war.
Spain entry into the axis fold january-february 1941.
Portugal / Gibraltar conquered mid-1941.

Now preparing an possible invasion of Suez summer 1943. This will be the last offensive move by the germans, after that we will simply "lock the map" and win the game.

Actual revenue (with industrial technology level 3) = 185 pp / turn. I should reach 200 pp / turn with level 4 or 5...

I wasnt really hard, the only real work was in North Africa and England. The rest fell rather easily.

supermax wrote:

Aryaman wrote:Very interesting AAR, I have doing that same strategy in a PBEM game, v2.0, but I am still in early 1941. I have delayed Sealion until now because I have been very busy in North Africa (still one city in Allied control) and fencing off the 8th army in Lybia. I would be interested in you briefly outlining the sequence of your campaigns up to the present, you seem to have been exceptionally succesful!

Ok, the sequences was as follows:

Early blitz of Belgium / Netherland (surrender on turn 2 and turn 3) and early blitz of France. Poland surrendered on turn 3 or 4.
Grinding campaign in France till june 1940, war declaration on Yougoslavia in may 1940 (attacked from Italy and southern Germany)
Greece conquered fall 1940 in fair/mud weather (depending on the hexe, the clear one were fair)
Norway/Denmark invaded while still mopping up northern England first and second turn of fair weather 1941.
Invasion of Britiain before France surrendered in may 1940, london fell somewhere in July.
North-African campaing as early as possible from the time of the Italian entry into the war.
Spain entry into the axis fold january-february 1941.
Portugal / Gibraltar conquered mid-1941.

Now preparing an possible invasion of Suez summer 1943. This will be the last offensive move by the germans, after that we will simply "lock the map" and win the game.

Actual revenue (with industrial technology level 3) = 185 pp / turn. I should reach 200 pp / turn with level 4 or 5...

I wasnt really hard, the only real work was in North Africa and England. The rest fell rather easily.

Very impressive plan ! but it really need continue good luck & an allies player who will follow your plan. If Uk concentrates in defending England & France perform better before death, You won't be easy to accomplish your present achivement .but Anyway this plan is quite amzing,especially your Navy !

Morris wrote:

supermax wrote:

Aryaman wrote:Very interesting AAR, I have doing that same strategy in a PBEM game, v2.0, but I am still in early 1941. I have delayed Sealion until now because I have been very busy in North Africa (still one city in Allied control) and fencing off the 8th army in Lybia. I would be interested in you briefly outlining the sequence of your campaigns up to the present, you seem to have been exceptionally succesful!

Ok, the sequences was as follows:

Early blitz of Belgium / Netherland (surrender on turn 2 and turn 3) and early blitz of France. Poland surrendered on turn 3 or 4.
Grinding campaign in France till june 1940, war declaration on Yougoslavia in may 1940 (attacked from Italy and southern Germany)
Greece conquered fall 1940 in fair/mud weather (depending on the hexe, the clear one were fair)
Norway/Denmark invaded while still mopping up northern England first and second turn of fair weather 1941.
Invasion of Britiain before France surrendered in may 1940, london fell somewhere in July.
North-African campaing as early as possible from the time of the Italian entry into the war.
Spain entry into the axis fold january-february 1941.
Portugal / Gibraltar conquered mid-1941.

Now preparing an possible invasion of Suez summer 1943. This will be the last offensive move by the germans, after that we will simply "lock the map" and win the game.

Actual revenue (with industrial technology level 3) = 185 pp / turn. I should reach 200 pp / turn with level 4 or 5...

I wasnt really hard, the only real work was in North Africa and England. The rest fell rather easily.

Very impressive plan ! but it really need continue good luck & an allies player who will follow your plan. If Uk concentrates in defending England & France perform better before death, You won't be easy to accomplish your present achivement .but Anyway this plan is quite amzing,especially your Navy !

Thx for the praise Moriss.

Well, you might be right Moriss, but i havent encountered an Allied player that prevented me from taking England in 1940 when i wanted it. Its rather easy since most player are not ready to commit the Royal Navy to block the germans to invade. The only way to stop them is to accept heavy losses on the naval side of things. So i dont see how you would stop a 5 TAC- 3 FTR / PARA and more invasion if the Axis player really want to take London.

As for France, i have an early blitz tactical strategy that never fails now, so the french are never a problem.

One thing you guys have to understand is all those achiements are only possible because i accept heavy land casualities, since i cannot have planes all over the map. I fail to understand why, but most players are not willing to pay the tactical price for a strategic advantage. Like attacking Poland with no air cover. Sure i loose units, but i gain hugely strategically by destroying France early.

Same for the rest. Yougo and Greece were invaded with the feeble support from italian aircover only. Sure it cost me a lot of casualities, but then again i got early oil and it didnt impede me from doing the other stuff i was doing around the map. I was busy conquering all around. Something's got to give, and in my case casualities always mount to what some players would consider unnaceptable numbers.

I think that the 185 pp / turn revenue, Spanish support and the "wall of steel" i have against the Russians speaks for itself. It was all worth it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: CEAW Diplo vs. Max--the game so far
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 14:47:30 -0400
From: cjohnson@sc4.edu
To: souvorov@hotmail.com

Max,



As usual, I’m away from my home computer until Th. A.M., so I’ll use this opportunity to comment on our game so far. You mentioned possibly doing an AAR, and you can feel free to use my comments, if you like, when the time comes.



First of all, this has to be the most fun I’ve had playing CEAW. The strategy & tactics have been a continuous series of extraordinary twists and unexpected moves, and the “diplomacy” (i.e. emails) has been pretty darned amusing. This is the first time when playing Allies that I feel I’m playing the Axis: every move feels critical.



Your early Blitz kept me off-guard from the very beginning. It’s now spring 1942 and the British have *never* reached 75%+ manpower so far. This has been just crippling when added to the HG morale penalty. I don’t have much experience defending against Sealion, and so when the invasion came (before Paris had even fallen!), I was caught off-guard. And that gar sneaking into Glasgow… I still have a flat forehead from that one [image: Diplo hitting self repeatedly on forehead. “Doh!”]



I have reviewed the “Fortress Europa/Operation Amerika” AAR, and as much as you dominated that game, I’m afraid this one will eclipse it. Here, you’ve achieved pretty much everything you did in that game by this time, and in addition you have Spain (+Gibraltar!), all of North Africa, etc., etc., etc. I shudder to think what your Barbarossa is going to look like (gulp). And you managed to achieve this despite me doing pretty much everything I could to slow you down.



I divulge no state secrets when I say that I decided early on---as soon as it was obvious that England was lost---to do all I could to preserve the RN and the RAF. I succeeded in that, although they escaped somewhat battered, and a couple ships went down. But even with those resources more or less intact, I have to say it’s as intimidating as hell to consider how I can possibly project them into anything more than a gnat-like annoyance. I’ve seen enough of your actions in AAR’s to know that it’s going to be very tough slogging indeed to get any kind of foothold to bring the war to the Axis.



One of the things I really appreciate about your grand strategy is that it puts the Allies in a terrible bind: either launch a premature attack by the Western Allies only to face uphill struggles against numerous and technically superior Axis forces; or hold back and wait for your labs to kick in… which leaves the USSR fighting all alone. And all the time, the clock is ticking. Yes, it’s a lot of months from spring 1942 to 1945, but already I’m feeling the time pressure. How in the world will I find enough time to catch up in terms of military strength and get it into play in time to take London, Paris, Hamburg, Berlin, and Rome in only 3 years?



Kudos to you, Max, for devising and executing such a brilliant strategy. I can hardly wait to see what your next move will be (at the same time I dread it!).



CJ (aka Diplomaticus)

_____________________________________________________

From: Lamirande Maxime [mailto:souvorov@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 10:13 PM
To: Cliff Johnson
Subject: RE: CEAW Diplo vs. Max--the game so far



My friend, you are not giving yourself enough credit... Honestly, the allies cannot do anything against a determined axis player if that player choose not to attack Russia. Yes, maybee i was able to organize some stunts, but really i was just agressive to the extreme and manage my troops accordingly. I have never failed to land in England because most players now only try to protect the british fleet ... To block my invasion strategy, you have to commit the Royal navy from the north and from the Channel, or you cannot do anything about it. Its rather easy, you saw how i made it happen, i blocked the channel with a sub and from there could do what i wanted since anyway you didnt commit your navy.

the basic assumption of this new try at Fortress Europa is that in the other game i didnt have enough revenue and i didnt take Gibraltar, which i should have. So the strategy to conquer the whole map. I think that its now doable because of the new rules giving more oil to the germans. Also i didnt break enough russians in 1942 to keep them off-balance. Finally, i produced my fleet too early in the game and not in enough numbers.

All of these i intend to correct and i believe you are right in the fact that i am going to fare even better. But ive never completed the other game, so we dont know sometimes the axis collapse rather quickly.

As to your moves so far, well i cannot fault you in anything. You saved the british fleet from destruction and you are now doing the thing i hoped you would not do early on, that is put pressure on the Axis right in summer 1942. This diverts ressources and rail points which i need to complete my strategy in the east...

As to the grand strategy itself, well i believe its the best way to win, not a whimpy victory for the germans, but actually holding Paris and London throughout the war and get a major one. With a revenue that should soon be at 200, i believe i can safely produce at least 1 fighter or major naval unit every turn (or 2 small ones), while covering and repairing losses and producing troops for the eastern meat grinder that will be the germano-soviet front. This strategy is now mandatory if you want to have a real victory with the germans because of all the rules changes rendering the Russians invincible.

I think the key for both of us will be how good the western allies fare and how much damage the russians can inflict, and the final say will be in the air. If i can maintain air superiority till mid 1944, i should be able to hold the front. The naval aspect will be minor, in the sense that i will always be able to produce ground troops to be superior on the ground, as the last game proved when Zechi tried to takeover Italy.

Do you mind if i post this discussion in my upcoming AAR?

This should be interesting. Fortress Europa strategy generally works quite well and with your skill it should work REALLY well. It would be interesting to see how would you fare against an extremely aggressive player like Morris.

Cybvep wrote:This should be interesting. Fortress Europa strategy generally works quite well and with your skill it should work REALLY well. It would be interesting to see how would you fare against an extremely aggressive player like Morris.

Well, i think it would work as well, since moriss would be too agressive too early so i would inflict a lot of damage to him and ultimatly i would prevail

I just dont have the time right now for another game, but i definitly want to try it on moriss , since he kinda hinted that it would not work against him. I might have my own opinion about that.

Aren't you going to take Belfast? Did you manage to take Scapa Flow?

Kragdob wrote:Aren't you going to take Belfast? Did you manage to take Scapa Flow?

Not this time around. the moral drop isnt worth it since after the Russians are in the war, it doesnt make a different.

and honestly i would have liked to do it, but i was busy conquering the map so i never found the planes or troops to do it

No matter i might do it in 1943, might not, i dont know...

supermax wrote: If i can maintain air superiority till mid 1944?

Now when Soviets are weaker than in GS2.0 you should be able, don't you? If you focus on Dog Fight you will reach max in 1943 while Soviets in 1944 if they get lucky. Winter is not a problem in Poland and Germans and Italy have twice the limit of airplanes so you can even have quantitative advantage over Russians.

Didn't you think over a knock-out I mean 1942 offensive on Moscow & Stalingrad?

Kragdob wrote:

supermax wrote: If i can maintain air superiority till mid 1944?

Now when Soviets are weaker than in GS2.0 you should be able, don't you? If you focus on Dog Fight you will reach max in 1943 while Soviets in 1944 if they get lucky. Winter is not a problem in Poland and Germans and Italy have twice the limit of airplanes so you can even have quantitative advantage over Russians.

Didn't you think over a knock-out I mean 1942 offensive on Moscow & Stalingrad?

Well, my first Barbarossa turn is done and i basically sliced thru the Russians lines. I should post it tonite. I am actually considering going forward. But... That first turn cost me over 200 oil. No surprises i have 12 FTR, 7 TAC, 10 ARM and line 12-14 MECH... I honestly dont know. once i start to see what Dilpomatics has built, i will decide. I suspect he built a ton of FTR and TAC. If he did, well my friends he is in for a lot of troubles...

So, right now i will "probe forward" with my wall of steel. I am actually hoping that Dilpomaticus is a proponent of offensive in 1942. I would love to be able to fight the Russians in Western Russia.

It's a very good strategy. I do wonder what a patient Allied player could do against it. Someone who wasn't afraid to wait until 1943 to try anything major with the Allies. Someone who didn't fight with the Russians during the summer until their air force was large and tech was almost even.

Attacking prematurely plays right into supermax's hands; it's what he wants. You have to wait until you're really ready or you just waste resources and hurt future offensives. In the east, the "steel wall" is very strong, but it's close to the Axis heartlands. Supermax can lose units, but he can't afford to retreat very far. So if the Russians can get going, they don't need a lot of time to get to key cities.

At this point, it looks like the Allies are destined to lose. But I do wonder if there is not a small chance at victory. I think being patient gives the Allies the best chance.

joerock22 wrote:It's a very good strategy. I do wonder what a patient Allied player could do against it. Someone who wasn't afraid to wait until 1943 to try anything major with the Allies. Someone who didn't fight with the Russians during the summer until their air force was large and tech was almost even.

Attacking prematurely plays right into supermax's hands; it's what he wants. You have to wait until you're really ready or you just waste resources and hurt future offensives. In the east, the "steel wall" is very strong, but it's close to the Axis heartlands. Supermax can lose units, but he can't afford to retreat very far. So if the Russians can get going, they don't need a lot of time to get to key cities.

At this point, it looks like the Allies are destined to lose. But I do wonder if there is not a small chance at victory. I think being patient gives the Allies the best chance.

I think Joe has it spot on. I have executed nearly Max's exact strategy a couple of times and faught against something similar a couple as well.

They key for the Allies is patience, you won't be able to achieve anything of note in 42. Its particularly inportant that the Russians don't throw themselves against the Axis wall in 42 (even winter).

I believe the only way for the Allies to win is a co-ordinated 3 country attack (UK, US, Russia) so that the Aixs can't match the continual PP drain that the Allies can

richardsd wrote:

joerock22 wrote:It's a very good strategy. I do wonder what a patient Allied player could do against it. Someone who wasn't afraid to wait until 1943 to try anything major with the Allies. Someone who didn't fight with the Russians during the summer until their air force was large and tech was almost even.

Attacking prematurely plays right into supermax's hands; it's what he wants. You have to wait until you're really ready or you just waste resources and hurt future offensives. In the east, the "steel wall" is very strong, but it's close to the Axis heartlands. Supermax can lose units, but he can't afford to retreat very far. So if the Russians can get going, they don't need a lot of time to get to key cities.

At this point, it looks like the Allies are destined to lose. But I do wonder if there is not a small chance at victory. I think being patient gives the Allies the best chance.

I think Joe has it spot on. I have executed nearly Max's exact strategy a couple of times and faught against something similar a couple as well.

They key for the Allies is patience, you won't be able to achieve anything of note in 42. Its particularly inportant that the Russians don't throw themselves against the Axis wall in 42 (even winter).

I believe the only way for the Allies to win is a co-ordinated 3 country attack (UK, US, Russia) so that the Aixs can't match the continual PP drain that the Allies can

Yes , you are both correct . As what happened in history , Axis won victory after victory from 1939 to 1941, their advantage of tec & GDP & military tac assure them to gain the victory before US & USSR 's really join in . Max's strategy is quite creative & outstanding ! I love it no matter whether the Axis will finally win or not ! It is amazing ! I think this should be one of the spirit of this game ! The most important thing of playing this game is to enjoy it ! Not win or lose !

But I suggest not try to copy this strategy if your skill & luck is not as well as Max ! It is too complicated to execute his huge plan ! It also need the rival to also accompany with the strategy . Maybe Max know how to do if he fail part of the plan , but you don't know . You can try it if you just want to experience it , but maybe quite different result from the Max AAR .

The part of the strategy I don´t quite understand is "- Build the Axis fleet later in the game (mid 1942)." why? Britain is alrready conquered and for a defensive strategy the fleet is not really useful, and you have to spend in navy labs, or are you thinking of invading the US?

Aryaman wrote:The part of the strategy I don´t quite understand is "- Build the Axis fleet later in the game (mid 1942)." why? Britain is alrready conquered and for a defensive strategy the fleet is not really useful, and you have to spend in navy labs, or are you thinking of invading the US?

Well, its quite simple. In order to achieve a "conquer the map" scenario, i had to buy TAC, tanks and mech earlier than in the other Fortress Europa strategy. Also, in the other game i noticed that the allies dont go for England right away, so having a fleet to block a landing this early is kinda moot. Yes, they will land maybee in North Africa or Spain, but what would be the problem with that? Rough terrain, 3 supply zone, and far, far from axis strategic assets.

I learned an important lesson from the last game. That in 1942 and 1943, the Axis can easily fend off the allies with land troops, expecially if you can be successeful in not giving them too large a hold on the european continent.

In this game in particular, well, the allies will be landing in North Africa. You will see how easily i will block this offensive. the Taurus mountains and the Sahara desert will be my friend.

As to an america landing, no, i wont. That is another twist i am going to try in this strategy(one day, in a later game), that is land in North America spring 1941 to knock off the english. 1942, its just too late, with the americans and all.

But i will, however, try something in Egypt. Right now i have been busy building up my strenght against the Russians, but now i will be able to divert forces to other theatres. I dont know if you noticed, but my land forces are a lot stronger than in the other Fortress Europa AAR... In fact, i am on the offensive now with the germans.

Morris wrote:

richardsd wrote:

joerock22 wrote:It's a very good strategy. I do wonder what a patient Allied player could do against it. Someone who wasn't afraid to wait until 1943 to try anything major with the Allies. Someone who didn't fight with the Russians during the summer until their air force was large and tech was almost even.

Attacking prematurely plays right into supermax's hands; it's what he wants. You have to wait until you're really ready or you just waste resources and hurt future offensives. In the east, the "steel wall" is very strong, but it's close to the Axis heartlands. Supermax can lose units, but he can't afford to retreat very far. So if the Russians can get going, they don't need a lot of time to get to key cities.

At this point, it looks like the Allies are destined to lose. But I do wonder if there is not a small chance at victory. I think being patient gives the Allies the best chance.

I think Joe has it spot on. I have executed nearly Max's exact strategy a couple of times and faught against something similar a couple as well.

They key for the Allies is patience, you won't be able to achieve anything of note in 42. Its particularly inportant that the Russians don't throw themselves against the Axis wall in 42 (even winter).

I believe the only way for the Allies to win is a co-ordinated 3 country attack (UK, US, Russia) so that the Aixs can't match the continual PP drain that the Allies can

Yes , you are both correct . As what happened in history , Axis won victory after victory from 1939 to 1941, their advantage of tec & GDP & military tac assure them to gain the victory before US & USSR 's really join in . Max's strategy is quite creative & outstanding ! I love it no matter whether the Axis will finally win or not ! It is amazing ! I think this should be one of the spirit of this game ! The most important thing of playing this game is to enjoy it ! Not win or lose !

But I suggest not try to copy this strategy if your skill & luck is not as well as Max ! It is too complicated to execute his huge plan ! It also need the rival to also accompany with the strategy . Maybe Max know how to do if he fail part of the plan , but you don't know . You can try it if you just want to experience it , but maybe quite different result from the Max AAR .

Luck?

Do you mean my luck with weather? hehehe

richardsd wrote:

joerock22 wrote:It's a very good strategy. I do wonder what a patient Allied player could do against it. Someone who wasn't afraid to wait until 1943 to try anything major with the Allies. Someone who didn't fight with the Russians during the summer until their air force was large and tech was almost even.

Attacking prematurely plays right into supermax's hands; it's what he wants. You have to wait until you're really ready or you just waste resources and hurt future offensives. In the east, the "steel wall" is very strong, but it's close to the Axis heartlands. Supermax can lose units, but he can't afford to retreat very far. So if the Russians can get going, they don't need a lot of time to get to key cities.

At this point, it looks like the Allies are destined to lose. But I do wonder if there is not a small chance at victory. I think being patient gives the Allies the best chance.

I think Joe has it spot on. I have executed nearly Max's exact strategy a couple of times and faught against something similar a couple as well.

They key for the Allies is patience, you won't be able to achieve anything of note in 42. Its particularly inportant that the Russians don't throw themselves against the Axis wall in 42 (even winter).

I believe the only way for the Allies to win is a co-ordinated 3 country attack (UK, US, Russia) so that the Aixs can't match the continual PP drain that the Allies can

We will see about that. The problem with allied patience (say only start attacking summer 1943) is that time is going to run out.

One other important factor is that the Germans will be kinda passive in the east, so the PP drain wont be really hard. a 200pp per turn Germany will be hard to knock off its feet, since by the time the allies will finally get moving, they will face a lvl 6 dogfight germany, 18-20 FTR, a german fleet, and a shitload of land troops for all uses and purposes.

No, the allies cannot be patient i think.

joerock22 wrote: So if the Russians can get going, they don't need a lot of time to get to key cities.

.

Yes, this is the achille heel of the strategy i believe. But, i can also build a wall of Infantry when shit hits the fan, retreat all southern forces to Germany and occupy most hexes, rendering the going forward more than a little bit slow...

I dont believe this is what will make me loose. I believe the western allies are the key.