Slitherine

Having read through version 6.0 I see that scythed chariots deploy 10 MUs in and can't move with a battle line. So they move once while main battle line moves twice - they get left behind!!!! Doesn't seem how they were used historically.
Suggestion:
Scythed chariots deploy with skirmishers 15 MUs in
A scythed chariot BG is permitted a second move if beyond 6MUs from enemy. (Yes I know that you can achieve this by putting a commander with the scythed chariot BG but what evidence is there that this was done with a troop type whose sole training was to close with the enemy ASAP before the main battle got going and welly in with enthusiasm??)

PS - did people volunteer to be scythed chariot drivers or was it the Ancient Middle East's version of the Russian front for stroppy troops?

clivevaughan wrote:A scythed chariot BG is permitted a second move if beyond 6MUs from enemy. (Yes I know that you can achieve this by putting a commander with the scythed chariot BG but what evidence is there that this was done with a troop type whose sole training was to close with the enemy ASAP before the main battle got going and welly in with enthusiasm??)

Appian's account of the Pontic army at the start of the First Mithridatic War names 5 commanders. One of these (Craterus) is in charge of the 130 scythed chariots (only).

rbodleyscott wrote:

clivevaughan wrote:A scythed chariot BG is permitted a second move if beyond 6MUs from enemy. (Yes I know that you can achieve this by putting a commander with the scythed chariot BG but what evidence is there that this was done with a troop type whose sole training was to close with the enemy ASAP before the main battle got going and welly in with enthusiasm??)

Appian's account of the Pontic army at the start of the First Mithridatic War names 5 commanders. One of these (Craterus) is in charge of the 130 scythed chariots (only).

Does the Mithridatic army list allow 5 commanders?

lawrenceg wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote:

clivevaughan wrote:A scythed chariot BG is permitted a second move if beyond 6MUs from enemy. (Yes I know that you can achieve this by putting a commander with the scythed chariot BG but what evidence is there that this was done with a troop type whose sole training was to close with the enemy ASAP before the main battle got going and welly in with enthusiasm??)

Appian's account of the Pontic army at the start of the First Mithridatic War names 5 commanders. One of these (Craterus) is in charge of the 130 scythed chariots (only).

Does the Mithridatic army list allow 5 commanders?

Touche. However, my point was that the commanders listed really are (because there are only 5) of the level we would treat in the game as commanders, and not battle group level commanders.

i.e. the scythed chariots did have their own general

(incidentally, in early play tests we did allow 5 generals, but it made the troops too easy to control)

rbodleyscott wrote: Appian's account of the Pontic army at the start of the First Mithridatic War names 5 commanders. One of these (Craterus) is in charge of the 130 scythed chariots (only).... However, my point was that the commanders listed really are (because there are only 5) of the level we would treat in the game as commanders, and not battle group level commanders.

i.e. the scythed chariots did have their own general

(incidentally, in early play tests we did allow 5 generals, but it made the troops too easy to control)

So we have a historical account of an army with 5 commanders that would be classified as commanders in the game.

Did the army in question demonstrate that it was very easily controlled? Was it noted for its complex evolutions and unusually high morale? (these are genuine quetions, not rhetorical)

If not then perhaps commanders in the game are too good, and should be cut back to the level where five of them does not make things too easy.

What did Craterus do after the scythed chariots had expended themselves? Did he go on to command other units (in the same battle)? If not then he should not be classified as a commander in the game.

One of my books names for the Macedonians at Gaugamela eight commanders including Alexander. That army certainly was noted for its exceptional achievements, so the number of commanders to make things "too easy" should be no more than 8. Not sure how many points that army would be in FoG.

Clearly not all armies were organised in the same way, and some named commanders may qualify as BG commanders anyway. At some point one has to apply a degree of abstraction.

We are attempting to balance the game for 3-4 "commanders". We could have chosen another number and then we would have balanced them accordingly.

Whichever number we chose it would not agree with all historical battle accounts. To home in on one or two examples (to the exclusion of others) is unhelpful.

To keep rules (relatively) simple, it is inevitable that some degree of arbitrariness will be required.

We are attempting to balance the game for 3-4 "commanders". We could have chosen another number and then we would have balanced them accordingly.

Whichever number we chose it would not agree with all historical battle accounts. To home in on one or two examples (to the exclusion of others) is unhelpful.

To keep rules (relatively) simple, it is inevitable that some degree of arbitrariness will be required.

That make sense.

The bottom line is:

If you want your scythed chariots to keep up, put a commander with them. Then pull him back when you launch them at a target. Or maybe keep him with them to make them fight better until they are destroyed and then pull him back.

lawrenceg wrote:The bottom line is:

If you want your scythed chariots to keep up, put a commander with them. Then pull him back when you launch them at a target. Or maybe keep him with them to make them fight better until they are destroyed and then pull him back.

Base him on a base with a scribe, who can take the name of any charioteer who bales out too soon.

I'm happy then for scythed chariots to have a commander but what about deploying them 15 MUs in? My reading of battles where they were used is that they were deployed in front of the army (no unit wants 'friendly' scythed chariots behind them!!)

clivevaughan wrote:I'm happy then for scythed chariots to have a commander but what about deploying them 15 MUs in? My reading of battles where they were used is that they were deployed in front of the army (no unit wants 'friendly' scythed chariots behind them!!)

They are not part of the advance "skirmish screen". They can, of course be deployed at the front at 10 MUs if you choose.

But should they be part of the advanced skirmisher screen?

But isn't the advanced skirmisher screen where scythed chariots tended to be deployed historically?

clivevaughan wrote:But isn't the advanced skirmisher screen where scythed chariots tended to be deployed historically?

Hard to say. All we know is that they were in front of the main battle line. This does not IMO imply that they were deployed 200 yards in front of the main battle line.

Rather the reverse is likely, because in order to be effective they needed to be followed up closely by other troops who could exploit the enemy disruption they caused in the enmy.