Slitherine

My third invitation tournament has a north European theme to it this time. It is also a bit different inasmuch as it is going to have a handicap system operating and it will include both an individual and team competition within it. The entrants are . . .

Team A: Nobles
ericdoman1 - Ordonnance Burgundian 450pts
hidde - Later Medieval Swedish 450pts
davouthojo - Low Countries (Maximilian) 450pts

Team B: Peasants
Fedem - Ordonnance France (later) 500pts
Triarius - Medieval Danish (later) 500pts
stockwellpete - Medieval German (later) 500pts

Everyone will play everybody else in a standard league format plus all the matches where a 500pt army plays a 450pt army will also contribute to a team event - Nobles versus Peasants. In the individual event four points will be awarded for a win, two points for a draw and a bonus point can be won by the winning player if his own losses are less than 50%. In the team event two points will be awarded for a win and one point for a draw.

The schedule of matches is as follows (they can be played in any order, matches also counting towards the team event are in bold ). You may start as soon as you are ready. Closing date is 31st March.

1. RESULT: ericdoman1 (Ordonnance Burgundian) 22/38 beat Fedem (Ordonnance France, later) 43/39 - NOBLES 2PTS
2. RESULT: hidde (Later Medieval Swedish) beat Triarius (Medieval Danish, later) w/o - NOBLES 2PTS
3. RESULT: stockwellpete (Medieval German, later) 33/38 beat davouthojo (Low Countries, Maximilian) 41/38 - PEASANTS 2PTS
4. RESULT: ericdoman1 29/38 (Ordonnance Burgundian) beat hidde (Later Medieval Swedish) 38/33
5. RESULT: Triarius - Medieval Danish, later) drew with stockwellpete (Medieval German, later)
6. RESULT: davouthojo (Low Countries, Maximilian) 27/38 beat Fedem (Ordonnance France, later) 43/39 - NOBLES 2PTS
7. RESULT: hidde (Later Medieval Swedish) 24/33 beat davouthojo (Low Countries, Maximilian) 39/38
8. RESULT: Fedem (Ordonnance France, later) 30/35 beat stockwellpete (Medieval German, later) 39/38
9. RESULT: ericdoman1 (Ordonnance Burgundian) 34/38 beat Triarius (Medieval Danish, later) 46/44 - NOBLES 2PTS
10. RESULT: Fedem (Ordonnance France, later) beat Triarius (Medieval Danish, later) w/o
11. RESULT: ericdoman1 (Ordonnance Burgundian) 24/38 beat davouthojo (Low Countries, Maximilian) davouthojo 43/36
12. RESULT: hidde (Later Medieval Swedish) 18/33 beat stockwellpete ( Medieval German, later) 41/40 - NOBLES 2PTS
13. RESULT: davouthojo (Low Countries, Maximilian) 21/38 beat Triarius (Medieval Danish, later) 47/44 - NOBLES 2PTS
14. RESULT: ericdoman1 (Ordonnance Burg) 5/38 beat stockwellpete (Medieval German, later) 40/39 - NOBLES 2PTS
15. RESULT: hidde (Later Medieval Swedish) 14/33 beat Fedem (Ordonnance France, later) 40/34 - NOBLES 2PTS


TEAM EVENT: current score

Nobles 16 Peasants 2


Notes to players
i) Mike (Triarius) will be starting his matches on March 4th due to a business trip.
ii) the thread where the issue of handicapping was discussed before is here . . . viewtopic.php?f=95&t=30021

Previous winners of this invitation event
1st event 2011 - Condotta challenge - stockwellpete (Florentine Condotta) and Benbix (Milanese Condotta) shared the trophy
2nd event 2011 - Iberian challenge - hidde (Later Granadines)

Three challenges up for grabs.
PW=Toke

They are set to 500pts so anyone can take them.
I have 450...promise

Cheers and good luck.

hidde wrote:Three challenges up for grabs.
PW=Toke

They are set to 500pts so anyone can take them.
I have 450...promise

Cheers and good luck.

OK, so that works OK does it, Anders? I can withdraw note i) then.

Anders

How do you do that?

ericdoman1 wrote:Anders

How do you do that?

I have just tried it, Eric, and it works. Set the DAG to 500pts but only pick 450. When you go to save the army, the save box tells you, "450/500: this army is not ready to be used in battle". Just ignore this message and save as usual. Then when you set up the challenge and press the "Issue challenge" button, it tells you, "The selected army only uses 450 of the maximum 500pts. Are you sure you wish to issue the challenge? " Just click on "yes" and everything is completed.

Gotcha

Issued 3 challenges redwine

I have accepted the challenges from Eric and Anders so the competition is underway.

The current LOEG ratings for the entrants into this event are (not including the results of Season 7) . . .

Nobles
ericdoman 7.91
davouthojo 6.95
hidde 6.34

Peasants
Triarius 4.67
stockwellpete 4.49
Fedem 3.59

My own view is that a 1.00 difference in the LOEG rating between players is worth around 25pts in the DAG in a 500pt match (or 5% if you prefer to measure it that way). So when I play hidde our comparative ratings are 4.49 for me and 6.34 for Anders - a difference of 1.85, suggesting that a 50pt advantage in the handicap for me should give me a really good chance of giving him a good run for his money.

I also believe that at a certain point a "taper" sets in - so a player with a LOEG rating 6.00 more than his opponent (not relevant in this tournament) could probably not give 150pts away in a 500pt game because the sheer weight of numbers of the larger army would probably prove decisive in the end, more often than not anyway.

So the handicap scale might look something like this - and it is only an educated guess at the moment.(Please note: the scale stops at 6.00 because this covers the widest LOEG rating gap between players that has occurred in a LOEG "A" division so far (that was 9.29 versus 3.61; a gap of 5.68).

1.00 difference = 25pts/500 or 5%
2.00 difference = 50pts/500 or 10%
3.00 difference = 75pts/500 or 15%
4.00 difference = 100pts/500 or 20% * (90pts)
5.00 difference = 125pts/500 or 25% * (105pts)
6.00 difference = 150pts/500 or 30% * (120 pts)

* I think the "taper" would need to come in around here (starting at 4.00 difference). Instead of the scale going up 100-125-150 where the increments are 25pts per LOEG rating point, maybe a better scale would be 90-105-120 where the increments are only 15pts per LOEG rating point.

And if you are wondering what the point of all this is? it is an attempt to measure the ability gap between players in percentage terms so that a realistic handicapping system may be used in certain competitions, where agreed, in future.

If you have any thoughts about this, please contribute them to this thread.

I have just been absolutely slaughtered by Eric. I will leave him to put the result on but I managed to get just 5 break points and I was playing with 500pts against 450pts. I picked an "inspired leader" and quite a lot of cavalry so that I would get 3 initiative points and have a good chance of choosing the battlefield. Eric had no initiative points. So what happens? I throw a 2 plus 3 initiative points = 5, but Eric throws a 6!! It was at that point that the battle was lost given that I had picked an army most suited to "open terrain".

Kinda proves my point about the need for a proper handicapping system though.

eric (Burg Ord) 5/38 vs Pete (Med German Later) 40/39

What Pete forgot to mention is that my luck continued throughout the game and or a combination of bad luck from Pete. He was completely outdiced, starting from the initiative.

Read Pete's previous comment in a lot more detail this time.

OK in some events maybe a handicap but not all.

Again our game was won because of dice. I also mentioned to Pete his army build was not a good one personally.

I think when you take all of these into account no wonder there was a massive differnece in the game.

I reckon if Pete had won initiative, a better army build and then had the dice the score would have been the other way around.

Just a statistic for you all.

In LOEG Season 7 in the two medieval "A" divisions, there were 21 matches completed between players having a LOEG rating of more than 7.50 and players having a LOEG rating of less than 5.00. The players with a rating of more than 7.50 won all of these matches and only on 4 occasions did the player with the rating of less than 5.00 manage to inflict over 50% casualties on his opponent.

Impressive.

Deja Vu

ericdoman1 wrote:Deja Vu

Well, I have made this argument before, Eric - and that is the reason for organising the tournament in this format so we can attempt a rudimentary measurement of the "skill-gap". But all the material that I will post in this thread is newly written, it is not regurgitated stuff that I have already posted. I know that you are against handicapping in LOEG, but the statistics are very telling, I think. And I have more.

Statistics never lie.

Thing is Hidde, Ianiow, PB, Davo and I could drop out of all comps. Another 5 would replace us. I reckon if you did this once more then you would have very even comps.

With the English Premier stop allowng Manu, Arsenal, Chelsea, Mancity to play and you would still have 4 other teams to replace them. Agai you could do it ne more time and then I reckon everything would be equal

Barcelona, Real Madrid. Celtic, rangers. Bayern Munich. In ruby New Zealand, Austarlia, South Africa

I could prob show you the stats on how these teams have dominated.

I coud then spend considerable time showing how in numerous other sports how other teams individuals have dominated.

I could spend even more time by showing how businesses have dominated

Even in FOG-TT you would ahve the same 4 to 8 players dominating, it will go on

Thing is this game is about the only thing I am very good at.

Give us a break Pete and move on

Three things, Eric.

Firstly, I don't think a modest handicapping system would threaten the very top player's dominance at all - they would still beat all the "B" division players who end up playing in the "A" divisions as cannon-fodder (these are the players who would benefit from a handicap, having a LOEG rating of less than 5.00). It just might not be as hopeless or demoralising for some of us as it is now.

Secondly, does anybody really enjoy games when they have won while losing only 6 or 7 break points as happens very regularly in the LOEG "A" Divisions? I am fairly certain the players on the receiving end don't really enjoy it. So if we can think of ways of improving the competition then at least we should discuss it, shouldn't we?

Thirdly, my own thoughts about this issue are still developing. The idea I am having now is that maybe, and only if there is a general consensus among the LOEG players as a whole, we could have a rolling system of handicaps. What I mean is this - when "Wolves from the Sea" and "Oath of Fealty" come out (by the summer) then we will probably have 5 sections to LOEG (Classical, Imperial, Dark Age, Western Medieval and Eastern Medieval) - so what if just two of the "A" divisions were handicapped each season? Hypothetically, Season 9 might see Classical and Western Medieval handicapped; in season 10 it might be Imperial and Eastern Medieval and so on. I think that might improve the competitions quite a bit and it might also help with recruitment.

EDIT: I have put certain phrases in larger print for the benefit of the hard of reading.

Hey, don't touch the LoEG!
I think it's a fine idea to try and sort out a handicap system but I will not abide having the League soiled like that
If it works reasonable well lets use it in separate tournaments and why not in friendly games.
Perhaps friendlies are the best choice. Could be a good way to practice both for the veteran and the novice.

hidde wrote:Hey, don't touch the LoEG!
I think it's a fine idea to try and sort out a handicap system but I will not abide having the League soiled like that
If it works reasonable well lets use it in separate tournaments and why not in friendly games.
Perhaps friendlies are the best choice. Could be a good way to practice both for the veteran and the novice.

Nobody is touching anything, Anders - I am just trying to initiate a discussion. It may well be that most players want LOEG left alone. If so, that's OK - but I won't be entering it in future. And yes, this invitation tournament is hopefully another step towards developing a handicap system that some players may want to use in tournaments, campaigns and friendlies. For example, if we do eventually end up with 5 sections in LOEG then there will not really be room for a knock-out competition within it as well (I have offered to "donate" my KO competition to LOEG if players would like it). So, what I will probably do in the second half of the year, is to run a second KO tournament (350pts) that is a handicapped event. Similarly, some of my medieval invitation events will be handicapped in future as well.

Well Pete I will take the first step and drop out of this medieval tournament, if you don't mind.

Ever since you brought this up, well it has opened up a can of worms that too me has spoiled the game.

It seemed to reduce the number of players playing LOEG dramatically.

Not sure if it was pure coincidence possibly it was but maybe not.

I am dropping out based as a demonstration against your idea of the handicap, not agst you personally.

You have been great with aiding in comps and numerous other things and a massive thank you but as you had to raise IT once again. It just reminded me how much it really bugged me the first time around.

Anyways let us still wait on PB and see what happens in the LOEG BUT don't you dare touch that.