Slitherine

Hi all,

I'm building my force for a club singles 800pt tournament. The theme is 'any army starting on or after 1000AD'.

I've gone for HYW English (Continental) as follows;

3x TC
4x Men at arms; HF Armoured Superior Drilled Hvy wpn - 4
4x Longbowmen; MF Protected Average Drilled Longbow Swordsmen - 8
1x Longbowmen; MF Protected Average Drilled Longbow Swordsmen - 6
1x Gascons; Knight Hvy Armour Superior Undrilled Lance Swordsmen - 4
1x Irish horse; LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Javelin Lt. Spear - 4
1x Irish kerns; LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Javelin Lt. Spear - 6

The plan is:

Basically to win with archery...
If terrain falls well, MF in terrain with the HF/Knights holding any open ground gaps
If forced into the open, Wall of MF with HF in rear support, ready to advance through to take on anything too tough.

The knights are for punch (or possibly to dismount if required)
The LF/LH are their to contest terrain the MF can't deal with and to pursue broken enemy to stop them rallying.

I'm aware that some of the armies i'll be facing are: Communal Italian, Later Ottoman, Later Crusader, possibly Samurai, + others.


So, i'd appreciate your wisdom chaps. Is my army build viable? What problems will I face?


Cheers
Ludd

So, you are hoping for good terrain with a +0 initiative? I too, have a HYW English army at 800 and I only take 1 BG of Light Foot and the rest is either Longbow or Men at Arms (well, I also have dismounted knights, but that is to save points with undrilled heavy weapon BGs). The army ends up with the same number of BGs and an Inspiring Commander for a +2 initiative to boot! Don't forget that your heavy foot can pass through your bow. This means that if you can clutter the board with terrain (unlikely, but possible), then you can force enemy knights and cavalry into your bows. BTW, are you taking stakes for your archers? If you expect enemy knights and cavalry, then stakes can really be a life saver! I know that better players are able to get away without using stakes, but if you are not used to HYW English, then stakes might be a good crutch in the beginning.

So, how would they face these armies?
Well, the Italian and Crusader armies are almost the same in their style: Knights, defensive spear, crossbow. I would assume that your heavy weapons should demolish the crossbow and/or spear. If your longbow have stakes, then the knights should be held up nicely by your longbow (hey, you might even win that fight).

I've seen a Later Ottoman army that really tore my own Later Crusaders apart. These Turks are slippery devils who can shoot and shoot with the best of them. Worse still, they get access to firearms for that extra -1 to your tests. They will probably have the +4 to their initiative so you can expect a fairly empty board for their bow cavalry and little terrain for your MF to hide inside (you did take the stakes, right?). With only 1 BG of knights and only 2 BGs of skirmishers, I don't anticipate them to last long. Honestly, if their army is built right, I see this as your biggest threat. The one thing you do have going for your army is that Longbow can out-range the enemy cavalry. Also, if your opponent doesn't know how to dance with them, then your archers could really hurt them in a ranged fight. Your HF are almost going to be useless if this Turk army takes little to no infantry.

Samurai are largely going to suffer against your army. You'll have better archery initially and when they get close, your heavy weapon units will be slightly better as they are heavy foot versus medium foot. Your archers will not be too bad against Samurai if they take protected.

Finally, and I'm surprised by this, there isn't going to be any Romans?!? Whenever my Free Company or HYW English go up against Superior and Elite Romans, I just lose. Those Romans will have ++ on impact and melee (well only a + against your Men at Arms). If you loose an impact, you will almost certainly take a -2 on your cohesion test. Even the Superior Romans (with a general) or Elite Romans against your archers will be hitting on 3s and very likely re-rolling 1s & 2s. Against your Men at arms, they will only be + in both impact and melee, so you'll be hitting on 5s and they will hit on 4s. The bigger challenge here is that a Roman player will probably have more BGs to fight your heavy weapons so expect deadly overlaps! Your one ace in the hole is a single knight unit .

Cheers eldiablito,

Terrain
With other armies, even with low initiative i've not found terrain to be sparse. I anticipate that i'll get at least a few useful terrain pieces to help the MF. And even if forced into the open, the HF in the rear ready to step through should give the bowmen confidence.

Stakes
No i haven't taken them. I think they're a liability, especially at 3pts each. They're useless vs. foot, and difficult to deploy. Also i think they instill a defensive mindset that this army will suffer under. I know the HYW English great successes (e.g. Crecy & Agincourt) are interpreted as defensive actions, i don't think FoG offers much chance to successfully win from the 'back foot'. I therefore intend to be highly aggressive (something i've learned is successful with a Classical Indian bow army that this one is similar to).

Even Kn in the open should struggle to overcome the longbowmen i think. I've had unprotected Classical Indian BGs consistently halt and destroy knights and heavy chariots, and these English longbowmen are superior to that. So fingers crossed!

Ottomans
Yes, the firearms are a worry, but i'm pretty confident i'll outshoot the Ottomans. the longbows should be up on most factors against the Ottomans main troops. Their mobility worries me and my narrow frontage will likely give them some solid flank options that i'm concerned about...

Romans?
No, as i said the theme is 'any army starting in or after 1000AD'.



So what about my build?

Should i ditch the light troops and knights for more longbowmen?
Are 3 TCs enough for 12 BGs?

A solid list. The Gasons are the real issue. They are expensive and I have honestly gone back and forth a few times on whether to take them. I've usually opted against them That is the hard part to debate.

3 TCs are certainly an option because you will usually be tightly deployed.

Luddite wrote: Terrain
...

Well, my buddies at my LGS can, if they win initiative, remove most terrain, when needed. For example, if they win initiative, take agricultural terrain choices: 1 road, 2 opens (maximum size of 12"), and 1 mandatory of the smallest variety (4x6"). Then they would drop the mandatory choice where ever the dice decide, but as far out of the way as possible. Then, comes the opens, where they would try to shut down 1 board side. Finally, they would place the road (or does the road come second, I forget). The road should shut down the other board side. Now your 4 choices are your mandatory and 3 rough choices (if you play it smart). Well, your mandatory should have gone down first (after his mandatory). Now, after his next 3 choices go down, you are stuck with only dropping your terrain on 1, 2, 5, 6 (because the road and 12" circles of open can really shut down a great deal of the board). A fast army can ignore your terrain if you roll a 1 or 2. Also, if you roll any 5s or 6s to drop your terrain, then they can hope to push the pieces to the sides. Of course, this is all conjecture, but if you are not ready for this eventuality, you can easily find yourself unable to drop all 3 pieces of terrain and only have a road and 2, out of the way, terrain selections. You would have little to no terrain to protect your flanks!

Luddite wrote: Stakes
...

Hey, I wish you luck. I know many people on this forum do not like stakes. In an ideal world, when I play this particular army, I move into just under 6" (so 5.9" or so) and shoot them at long range. Then if they advance into THEIR charge range, I drop stakes. In an ideal world, if heavily armoured knights get within 6.1", I move into long range and then shoot them with roughly 3 or 4 dice. I can hope for 2 hits and make him test. Well, I usually assume that they have a general and will pass their test. Now, the knights move within short range; I shoot them now for 4 to 6 dice and assume 2 or 3 hits. I have forced another test! On my turn, I drop stakes and shoot them for ANOTHER 4 to 6 dice. If both sides get averages, I have made the same knight group test 3 times. Even on averages, a single knight group should disrupt at least once from 3 tests. On the knight turn, they charge and now their 2 advantages they had (medium foot in the open and lances) go away with my stakes. Without those stakes, the knights have a ++ on impact and re-roll 1 (and 2 with a general). Even with the back rank shooters, I don't like those odds, even when the knights are disrupted.

Luddite wrote: Ottomans
...

Do be careful of those superior, bow, swordsmen cavalry too. With their 5 inch charge, mounted, and armoured, they will still get very decent PoAs against your longbowmen. Your Men at Arms will not get the impact PoA, so expect them to be charged if they ever disrupt from enemy bow-fire. Also, beware of even Light Horse on your flanks. Yeah, you don't drop a cohesion level, but once you are in melee, that silly Light Horse unit is now making you fight in 2 directions and now you are only + to the enemy's ++. Eeewwww! I wish I could say that it hasn't happened to me from those devilish Ottomans (my opponent did that to me AFTER dropping my heavy foot to disrupted).

Luddite wrote: Romans?
...

Ooops! I didn't catch that one...


Otherwise, your build is fine if you don't take stakes. You'll need more anti-cavalry punch if you don't take longbow stakes, so the knights are a decent choice. Also, you'll want to slow down a flank so, 2 BGs of skirmishers are better than 1. So, I see where you are coming from. Test this out a few times and see if it works for you. Personally, I try for better terrain, so the +2 initiative works better for me. Also, it helps me drop the stakes without as much fear. Finally, I only take the Light Foot as I don't have many points left over from the heavy weapon BGs and my 5 to 6 BGs of longbowmen (I usually take them in groups of 6 for greater agility and a higher BG count).

WoR are a better choice some would say.
I used HYW Eng Con recently in a 650pt Open 15mm Comp on a 5'x3' table, see Warclouds 2012 http://www.slithdata.net/files/fog/rankings.html
Managed to keep off the bottom ....just.
The best BG in the army was my IC, well worth the money. Getting the terrain is a must if you want any chance, go for hilly as there are no open spaces available.
You also need good, and I mean GOOD, shooting dice.
Look forward to reading some reports on your progress.

I don't want to get all 'historical' here or anything but...
the English transporting Irish Kerns and light horse to fight on the continent?
Really??
Are there actually sources for this?

Well Shakespeare talks about the Irish in Henry V.

Captain MacMorris is the Irishman who defends himself against Captain LLewellyn's accusation that 'there are not many of your nation'.

I also understand that the historical sources talk of English Welsh, Scots and Irish (as well as Normans and French) fighting in Henry's army at Agincourt, but i don't have the references to hand.

If i recall, there was debate as to whether 'Irish' meant actual Irishmen or simply soldiers fighting in the Irish style...

I don't have my list book to hand but are they actually allowed LH in the continental version ?

Yes. After 1415, HYW English Continental are allowed 0-4 bases of Irish Light Horse.

Luddite wrote:soldiers fighting in the Irish style...

Do Irish have style?

Hi,

I hope they will have some next week end when they will play rugby with the french team at " the stade de France ",

Best regards and have a good game Guys;

thefrenchjester " fan of the Rugby style"

Teams that play 'with' the French stand a good chance of losing. Best for the Irish to play against them and forget style.

Luddite wrote:Hi all,

I'm building my force for a club singles 800pt tournament. The theme is 'any army starting on or after 1000AD'.

Ludd

Well how goes the tournament Ludd ?