Slitherine

Posted: **Mon May 21, 2007 10:12 am**

First read of the rules :

- The rules are clearly writed and organized.

- At first read it seems to be a little bit complicated. Maybe it is because there is more than 100 pages ?

- I think the "Shooting POA" table on page 52 is not presented in the right way. The table entry is based
on the target and i think it is best to based on the shooting unit. The 'Impact POA' and 'Melee POA' are already
presented in this way. So the correct way should be : what is my shooting unit (bow, crossbow, firearms ...)
and what are my POA against the different targets. I think it will be more easier in this way.

Army List

Just few remarks about the Byzantine Thematic List :
- Why detached cursores are Cavalry and not Light Horse ? I think it can be the two options.
- For the Skoutatoi and supporting archers, the proportions of 3/4 and 1/4 and the limitation of BG with even number
of element is very restrictive. You can only field 6 spearmen and 2 archers or 9 spearmen and 3 archers. With this
last option, the Battle group will be organized something like this :

SP SP SP SP SP
SP SP SP SP
BW BW BW

This is a bit strange organization ! It is better to make 2/3 spearmen and 1/3 archers so you can have :

SP SP SP SP
SP SP SP SP
BW BW BW BW

First Battle : Medieval French against Medieval German

The battle setup, terrain, mouvement rules are OK.
We made several mistakes during the game but it is normal as we are learning the rule !

Some questions :

Complex Move Test : When you want to make a complex move (Turn 90° with simple advance) it is not clear when you have to make the test.
We have to different way of interpretation :
1 - You make the 90° turn and make the test after : if you success you can also advance, if not your mouvement is finish.
2 - You declare you want to make a complex move and make the test. If you sucess you can do 90° turn and advance. If you fail
you can just advance but it is now impossible to make the 90° turn.
Wich one is correct ?

Complex Move Test Modifier : Are the modifier to "Commander in command range" and "Commander is with the
battle group" cumulative ? It is not clear because au commander with a battle group is always in command range !

Cohesion Test : Page 55 it is writed that you must inflige 1 hit per 3 base by shooting to force a cohesion test.
In the 'AoW_5_04 Movement_Cohesion Refsheet_RBS_30.xls' it is writed that you must suffer 1 hit per 2 base by shooting
to test. Wich one is correct ?

1HP3B : If you have a group with 4 bases, you must inflict at least 1 or 2 hits to force a test ?

Combat : We have a discussion about a combat between 6 Bowmen and 4 Knights (all average). It seems that it is very
difficult for the Knights to win the combat. In our game, the Knights were Disrupted by shooting before the charge.
In the impact phase they have 6 dice reduce to 4 dice because of disruption. They score a hit on 3+. The bowmen have 9 dice (6 for the
first rank and 3 for the second supporting rank) and they score a hit on 5+. So there is an orerall advantage for
the bowmen and in fact they win the impact and after win the melee as the knights were fragmented.

Some players thought that a knight charge on bowmen have a good chance of winning and were disapointed by the result.
If it is longbowmen and if they have portable defense it could be ok but in our game the bowmen where in open terrain
and they are just 'average' bowmen ...

With this first battle, the global impression is that dice roll and luck seems to have a major effect on the combat.
Even if you have good troop you are not sure to win combat against inferior opponent. If you fail the first strike, you are in bad position
to the rest of the combat. Even with a POA++ your chance of success is not very high ... Maybe we have to play more to understand all
the interaction between troops.

We try another game and post the result of our test.

Regards
Hervé from France

Posted: **Mon May 21, 2007 10:25 am**

hcaille wrote:Some questions :

Complex Move Test : When you want to make a complex move (Turn 90° with simple advance) it is not clear when you have to make the test.
We have to different way of interpretation :
1 - You make the 90° turn and make the test after : if you success you can also advance, if not your mouvement is finish.
2 - You declare you want to make a complex move and make the test. If you sucess you can do 90° turn and advance. If you fail
you can just advance but it is now impossible to make the 90° turn.
Wich one is correct ?

Neither. I assume your troops were drilled. You test first. If you succeed you can turn 90 degrees and advance. If you fail you can either advance or turn 90 degrees but not both. (Because each of these is a simple move)

Complex Move Test Modifier : Are the modifier to "Commander in command range" and "Commander is with the
battle group" cumulative ? It is not clear because au commander with a battle group is always in command range !

They are cumulative. (For the reason you give).

Cohesion Test : Page 55 it is writed that you must inflige 1 hit per 3 base by shooting to force a cohesion test.
In the 'AoW_5_04 Movement_Cohesion Refsheet_RBS_30.xls' it is writed that you must suffer 1 hit per 2 base by shooting
to test. Wich one is correct ?

1HP3B.

In fact the reference sheet does say 1HP3B to cause a test. (The 1HP2B is a -1 modifier.)

1HP3B : If you have a group with 4 bases, you must inflict at least 1 or 2 hits to force a test ?

2 (Unless they are in a 1 base wide column, in which case, as only the first 3 ranks count, it would be 1)

Combat : We have a discussion about a combat between 6 Bowmen and 4 Knights (all average). It seems that it is very
difficult for the Knights to win the combat. In our game, the Knights were Disrupted by shooting before the charge.
In the impact phase they have 6 dice reduce to 4 dice because of disruption. They score a hit on 3+. The bowmen have 9 dice (6 for the
first rank and 3 for the second supporting rank) and they score a hit on 5+. So there is an orerall advantage for
the bowmen and in fact they win the impact and after win the melee as the knights were fragmented.

Some players thought that a knight charge on bowmen have a good chance of winning and were disapointed by the result.
If it is longbowmen and if they have portable defense it could be ok but in our game the bowmen where in open terrain
and they are just 'average' bowmen ...

The knights were unlucky. In most such matchups the knights will win, especially if Superior. Average knights are more likely to fail.

Note that the option for downgrading French knights to Average is to represent the period when they mostly fought on foot. If you want them to ride down archers, they should be Superior.

Posted: **Mon May 21, 2007 11:02 am**

hcaille wrote: Just few remarks about the Byzantine Thematic List :
- Why detached cursores are Cavalry and not Light Horse ?

This is our analysis of their historical function as per the Strategikon. Don't forget that cavalry can evade in FoG.

- For the Skoutatoi and supporting archers, the proportions of 3/4 and 1/4 and the limitation of BG with even number
of element is very restrictive. You can only field 6 spearmen and 2 archers or 9 spearmen and 3 archers. With this
last option, the Battle group will be organized something like this :

SP SP SP SP SP
SP SP SP SP
BW BW BW

This is a bit strange organization ! It is better to make 2/3 spearmen and 1/3 archers so you can have :

SP SP SP SP
SP SP SP SP
BW BW BW BW

Better in game terms but the manual has them in deep formations. In fact, if we follow the manual strictly it should be 1/5 bow to 4/5 spears!

So we settled on a compromise of 1/4 bow to 3/4 spears, which at least allows a formation with each file having 2 ranks of spears, 1 rank of bows, then 1 rank of spears.

The manual also describes various shallower formations that would be best represented by a partial 3rd rank of bows.

The formation below is actually not bad under the rules because it allows you to lose 1 spear base and still get spear POA on all files. It also gets the same number of support shooting dice as if the whole back rank was BW!

Code: Select all

SP SP SP SP  
SP SP SP SP 
BW BW SP BW

Posted: **Mon May 21, 2007 11:10 am**

hcaille wrote:First read of the rules :
- I think the "Shooting POA" table on page 52 is not presented in the right way. The table entry is based
on the target and i think it is best to based on the shooting unit. The 'Impact POA' and 'Melee POA' are already
presented in this way. So the correct way should be : what is my shooting unit (bow, crossbow, firearms ...)
and what are my POA against the different targets. I think it will be more easier in this way.

I agree, it's more logical

Posted: **Mon May 21, 2007 12:12 pm**

Combat : We have a discussion about a combat between 6 Bowmen and 4 Knights (all average). It seems that it is very
difficult for the Knights to win the combat. In our game, the Knights were Disrupted by shooting before the charge.
In the impact phase they have 6 dice reduce to 4 dice because of disruption. They score a hit on 3+. The bowmen have 9 dice (6 for the
first rank and 3 for the second supporting rank) and they score a hit on 5+. So there is an orerall advantage for
the bowmen and in fact they win the impact and after win the melee as the knights were fragmented.

Some players thought that a knight charge on bowmen have a good chance of winning and were disapointed by the result.
If it is longbowmen and if they have portable defense it could be ok but in our game the bowmen where in open terrain
and they are just 'average' bowmen ...

The knights were unlucky. In most such matchups the knights will win, especially if Superior. Average knights are more likely to fail.

Note that the option for downgrading French knights to Average is to represent the period when they mostly fought on foot. If you want them to ride down archers, they should be Superior.

For this combat the probability of the knights losing the impact is 45% (the bowmen lose 32%, a draw 23%). Even if they lose the impact, the knights have a fair chance of passing the CT.
In most cases they will still only be disrupted at the start of the melee, and then they have a big advantage over the bowmen unless the bowmen are swordsmen (in which case it is an even fight).

Posted: **Mon May 21, 2007 12:33 pm**

The problem was that Knights were disrupted by shooting before the impact. With 45% of chance of loosing the impact they are likely to be fragmented at the begining of the melee.

In conclusion, if the Knight were disrupted by shooting they should not charge because they are likely to loose combat. Is it an historical result ?

Hervé

Posted: **Mon May 21, 2007 1:25 pm**

hcaille wrote:The problem was that Knights were disrupted by shooting before the impact. With 45% of chance of loosing the impact they are likely to be fragmented at the begining of the melee.

If they lose the impact by 1 hit difference and have a commander with them (a BG of 6 knights really should have its own commander) they have a 58% chance of dropping another cohesion level.

Thus they have only a 26% chance of being FRAGMENTED after the impact phase.

This presupposes that they are DISRUPTED before impact, which they usually won't be.

In conclusion, if the Knight were disrupted by shooting they should not charge because they are likely to loose combat. Is it an historical result ?

If French, they should be Superior, otherwise they should be attacking archers on foot. They only qualify as Average because during that period they normally fought on foot.

Superior will further reduce the chance of disruption before contact, the chance of losing the impact, and the chance of cohesion drop if they do lose the impact.

--------------

It is hard to judge an interaction from one play-test. We have tested this interaction many times, and on average the result is historically realistic.

But success is not guaranteed. We have to keep the game exciting!

Posted: **Mon May 21, 2007 1:50 pm**

hcaille wrote:The problem was that Knights were disrupted by shooting before the impact. With 45% of chance of loosing the impact they are likely to be fragmented at the begining of the melee.

In conclusion, if the Knight were disrupted by shooting they should not charge because they are likely to loose combat. Is it an historical result ?

Hervé

If they lose the impact, the chance of passng the CT is 58% (assuming no net modifiers)

That gives overall about 81% chance of starting the melee still only disrupted. If they get that far, they are about 90% certain to end the melee still only disrupted. (assuming they are on ++ in melee).

Overall it works out that the knights have a roughly 26% chance of ending up worse off than they started (disrupted).

Overall, there is roughly a 33% chance that the bowmen will finish the melee disrupted or worse and if that happens they are very likely to get broken before long.

So the odds favour the knights. The presence or absence of generals and rear support giving CT bonus would tip the odds one way or the other. If the knights were not disrupted by shooting, the odds would be much more in their favour.

If the knights do not charge, they have no chance of harming the bowmen and they will just get shot again. So charging is a better idea than sitting around. They could of course withdraw out of range, rally and try again to move into charge distance without getting disrupted. This may or may not be a good idea depending on the circumstances of the battle.

Slitherine

First impressions

First impressions

Re: First impressions

Re: First impressions

Re: First impressions

Re: First impressions