Slitherine

I called it IV because this is for the bloody minded and if we continue you may need one.


edited to get picture to base scale

Green is a BG of 8 bases of Armd Off Spear HF in Orb
A is a BG of protected Imp Ft Sword MF
B is a BG of Hvy Armd Lance Sword catafracts

A and B charge Green.

What are the numbers of dice per BG and POA for each BG at impact and then in melee if the spear do not lose cohesion.

Bonus points.

How many dice and what POAs if the spear do lose cohesion.

Assume in both of the above that neither the catafracts or impact foot lose cohesion and none lose bases in impact

Impact
A gets 4 dice
B gets 2 dice
Green gets 2 dice against A and 2 dice against B
A fights at ++
B fights at +

Melee
A gets 2 dice (2 front rank bases in contact; no overlaps count)
B gets 1 die (1 front rank base in contact; no overlaps count)
Green has 2 dice against A and 2 dice against B (per the Orb rules)
Green fights at + against A (better armour)
B fights at + against green (better armour)

I sure like these quizzes. It gives me a chance to see how well I'm reading the rules.

At impact A fights with 2 dice at ++ vs 2 dice for green and B (corrected from 'A' typo) fights with 2 dice at even vs 2 dice for green (total 4 dice for green).

In melee, A fights with 2 dice at - verses 2 dice for green , and B fights with 2 dice at + verses 2 dice (again total 4 dice for green).

In melee if green loses cohesion, then A fights with 2 dice at even verses 2 dice for green, and B fights with 2 dice at ++ verses 2 dice (still 4 total dice for green)

I'm auditing this course. I can't have a grade cause I lost my pj's.

The right answer is in there somewhere. Just need to extract it from the two of you.

How did someone in NZ answer earlier than someone in Alaska? You get up far too early Zoltan, or its just dark all day now in Alaska so you don't know if its morning dark or night dark

philqw78 wrote:I called it IV because this is for the bloody minded and if we continue you may need one.


edited to get picture to base scale

Green is a BG of 8 bases of Armd Off Spear HF in Orb
A is a BG of protected Imp Ft Sword MF
B is a BG of Hvy Armd Lance Sword catafracts

A and B charge Green.

What are the numbers of dice per BG and POA for each BG at impact and then in melee if the spear do not lose cohesion.

Bonus points.

How many dice and what POAs if the spear do lose cohesion.

Assume in both of the above that neither the catafracts or impact foot lose cohesion and none lose bases in impact

At Impact

The Green battlegroup fights with 2 bases facing in each direction only one of which is a front rank base.

Therefore A gets 2 dice at ++ (impact foot v foot)

B gets 2 dice at evens (lance v steady non-charging spear)

Green gets two dice v A at --

and 2 dice v B at evens

In melee assuming no one loses cohesion or bases in impact

Since units in Orb cannot be overlapped

A gets 2 dice at a - due to greens armour
Green gets 2 dice at +

B gets 2 dice at + due to heavy armour
Green gets 2 dice at -

All of which can be found be reading page 122

bbotus wrote:I sure like these quizzes. It gives me a chance to see how well I'm reading the rules.

At impact A fights with 2 dice at ++ vs 2 dice for green and A fights with 2 dice at even vs 2 dice for green (total 4 dice for green).

In melee, A fights with 2 dice at - verses 2 dice for green , and B fights with 2 dice at + verses 2 dice (again total 4 dice for green).

In melee if green loses cohesion, then A fights with 2 dice at even verses 2 dice for green, and B fights with 2 dice at ++ verses 2 dice (still 4 total dice for green)

I'm auditing this course. I can't have a grade cause I lost my pj's.

As you say but A get 4 dice in melee. They don't get overlaps, but they have two front rank bases who are not overlaps, and two bases behind them

grahambriggs wrote:

bbotus wrote:I sure like these quizzes. It gives me a chance to see how well I'm reading the rules.

At impact A fights with 2 dice at ++ vs 2 dice for green and A fights with 2 dice at even vs 2 dice for green (total 4 dice for green).

In melee, A fights with 2 dice at - verses 2 dice for green , and B fights with 2 dice at + verses 2 dice (again total 4 dice for green).

In melee if green loses cohesion, then A fights with 2 dice at even verses 2 dice for green, and B fights with 2 dice at ++ verses 2 dice (still 4 total dice for green)

I'm auditing this course. I can't have a grade cause I lost my pj's.

As you say but A get 4 dice in melee. They don't get overlaps, but they have two front rank bases who are not overlaps, and two bases behind them

And Graham could be getting his on. No points for the Green disrupted though

philqw78 wrote:

grahambriggs wrote:

bbotus wrote:I sure like these quizzes. It gives me a chance to see how well I'm reading the rules.

At impact A fights with 2 dice at ++ vs 2 dice for green and A fights with 2 dice at even vs 2 dice for green (total 4 dice for green).

In melee, A fights with 2 dice at - verses 2 dice for green , and B fights with 2 dice at + verses 2 dice (again total 4 dice for green).

In melee if green loses cohesion, then A fights with 2 dice at even verses 2 dice for green, and B fights with 2 dice at ++ verses 2 dice (still 4 total dice for green)

I'm auditing this course. I can't have a grade cause I lost my pj's.

As you say but A get 4 dice in melee. They don't get overlaps, but they have two front rank bases who are not overlaps, and two bases behind them

And Graham could be getting his on. No points for the Green disrupted though

Oh yes, of course the orb has to lose a dice doesn't it. So it gets 2 and 1.

As you say but A get 4 dice in melee. They don't get overlaps, but they have two front rank bases who are not overlaps, and two bases behind them

Let's discuss this a minute. I agree that 2 bases of A appear to be in contact with green. The 'good' book says (and I now quote scripture, chapter and verse) : "- Fights in any direction with one quarter of its bases, rounded up. Half of these, rounded up, count as front rank bases." So it has 8 total bases and 1 front and 1 rear rank fighting in each direction. If you fight a column with A you get 6 dice in melee, 2 for head to head and 4 for overlaps. Why is this any different? The orb is a special all round defensive formation. For purposes of simplifying playing the game it is depicted as 2 wide with half the ranks facing to the rear (probably looking out for philqw78). In fact per the 'good' book an 8 stand BG in orb only has 1 front base facing in each direction that can't be overlapped. The appearance of A having 2 bases in contact is irrelevant.

Therefore, whereas and wherefore, in so far as, considering the facts of the matter, and just plain because; I submit to this esteemed body that the correct dice for A in melee is 2.

P.S. berthier has the correct answer, so he gets to wear the PJs. Brace yourself, berthier.

bbotus wrote:

As you say but A get 4 dice in melee. They don't get overlaps, but they have two front rank bases who are not overlaps, and two bases behind them

Let's discuss this a minute. I agree that 2 bases of A appear to be in contact with green. The 'good' book says (and I now quote scripture, chapter and verse) : "- Fights in any direction with one quarter of its bases, rounded up. Half of these, rounded up, count as front rank bases." So it has 8 total bases and 1 front and 1 rear rank fighting in each direction. If you fight a column with A you get 6 dice in melee, 2 for head to head and 4 for overlaps. Why is this any different?

Well, it's different because the rules on who counts in melee say:

"All bases whose front edge is in contact with enemy fight." Against a column there is one base in front edge contact. Here there are two bases in front edge contact.

grahambriggs wrote:

bbotus wrote:

As you say but A get 4 dice in melee. They don't get overlaps, but they have two front rank bases who are not overlaps, and two bases behind them

Let's discuss this a minute. I agree that 2 bases of A appear to be in contact with green. The 'good' book says (and I now quote scripture, chapter and verse) : "- Fights in any direction with one quarter of its bases, rounded up. Half of these, rounded up, count as front rank bases." So it has 8 total bases and 1 front and 1 rear rank fighting in each direction. If you fight a column with A you get 6 dice in melee, 2 for head to head and 4 for overlaps. Why is this any different?

Well, it's different because the rules on who counts in melee say:

"All bases whose front edge is in contact with enemy fight." Against a column there is one base in front edge contact. Here there are two bases in front edge contact.

Which is perhaps why the authors decided to not have overlaps count against an orb, but.....before Phil gets to write it or something equivalent.....that would assume some sort of logic on the part of the authors.

grahambriggs wrote:

bbotus wrote:

As you say but A get 4 dice in melee. They don't get overlaps, but they have two front rank bases who are not overlaps, and two bases behind them

Let's discuss this a minute. I agree that 2 bases of A appear to be in contact with green. The 'good' book says (and I now quote scripture, chapter and verse) : "- Fights in any direction with one quarter of its bases, rounded up. Half of these, rounded up, count as front rank bases." So it has 8 total bases and 1 front and 1 rear rank fighting in each direction. If you fight a column with A you get 6 dice in melee, 2 for head to head and 4 for overlaps. Why is this any different?

Well, it's different because the rules on who counts in melee say:

"All bases whose front edge is in contact with enemy fight." Against a column there is one base in front edge contact. Here there are two bases in front edge contact.

You really should read the rules on fighting in orb.

berthier wrote:

grahambriggs wrote:

bbotus wrote: Let's discuss this a minute. I agree that 2 bases of A appear to be in contact with green. The 'good' book says (and I now quote scripture, chapter and verse) : "- Fights in any direction with one quarter of its bases, rounded up. Half of these, rounded up, count as front rank bases." So it has 8 total bases and 1 front and 1 rear rank fighting in each direction. If you fight a column with A you get 6 dice in melee, 2 for head to head and 4 for overlaps. Why is this any different?

Well, it's different because the rules on who counts in melee say:

"All bases whose front edge is in contact with enemy fight." Against a column there is one base in front edge contact. Here there are two bases in front edge contact.

You really should read the rules on fighting in orb.

I have Chris. I take it you mean these ones?

"Fights in any direction with one quarter of its bases, rounded up. Half of these, rounded up, count as front rank bases.
Cannot be overlapped."

This tells you how many bases the orb fights with. It also says that the opponents don't get overlaps. However, what it doesn't say in that section is that the orb's opponents only get one front base and one second rank base fighting.

If you look at the red A BG in Phil's diagram it is clear that the two outer files of A are in overlap position and they don't fight. Is there some reason why you think the other four bases of A can't fight?

Perhaps because Phil did not draw all of the bases of the Green BG and when Red A conforms to Green, there will be one base in frontal contact with one front rank base of Green. Once conformed, and the bases of Green are formed in Ord, the literal alignment looks something like this:

AAAA
AAAA
G
G
GG GGBB
G BB
G

Since we fight BGs by file, if there is only one file of A fighting the front rank file of G, the other files of A would be in overlap which according to the rules covering orbs, A does not get. Same reason B only gets 2 dice and not 4.

berthier wrote:Perhaps because Phil did not draw all of the bases of the Green BG and when Red A conforms to Green, there will be one base in frontal contact with one front rank base of Green. Once conformed, and the bases of Green are formed in Ord, the literal alignment looks something like this:

AAAA
AAAA
G
G
GG GGBB
G BB
G

Since we fight BGs by file, if there is only one file of A fighting the front rank file of G, the other files of A would be in overlap which according to the rules covering orbs, A does not get. Same reason B only gets 2 dice and not 4.

Not sure where you get that from Chris. The orb rules say something different: "It is depicted by contracting the battle group to 2 files wide, and turning at least half the battle group‟s ranks to face the rear."

Why do you think it forms a star shape?

berthier wrote:Perhaps because Phil did not draw all of the bases of the Green BG

I did draw them all, there's 8, in correct formation and reasonably to scale.

Ah, I forgot to put the line down the middle but, hopefully, green being exactly twice as wide and it did say 8 you can forgive me for that

I'm with Graham; the Orb rules affect green; they don't affect red A. Thus as red A has 2 bases in legal contact with green it gets 4 dice at impact. Unless there is some constraint in the rules that says at impact opponents are required to fight with equal dice (implying red A must lose 2). I guess this happens when a steady BG impacts a fragmented BG (that survived the die roll).

zoltan wrote:I'm with Graham; the Orb rules affect green; they don't affect red A. Thus as red A has 2 bases in legal contact with green it gets 4 dice at impact. Unless there is some constraint in the rules that says at impact opponents are required to fight with equal dice (implying red A must lose 2). I guess this happens when a steady BG impacts a fragmented BG (that survived the die roll).

Well LF don't get to fight with equal dice. But they can't form orb thankfully.

zoltan wrote:I'm with Graham; the Orb rules affect green; they don't affect red A. Thus as red A has 2 bases in legal contact with green it gets 4 dice at impact. Unless there is some constraint in the rules that says at impact opponents are required to fight with equal dice (implying red A must lose 2). I guess this happens when a steady BG impacts a fragmented BG (that survived the die roll).

Well it does say equal bases.

I think the distinction between the two sides may be:

side A: two bases wide are the two bases fighting up page.
side b: two bases fighting up page should be 1 behind the other.

Perhaps that is not the disagreement, but at times post seem like it is.