Slitherine

Posted: **Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:44 pm**

I noticed that when using the scout option on infantry, I often take RANDOM damage to my units. I think this week I'll maybe delve a bit deeper into the algorithm for this, as I always hate not knowing how precisely something works.

Anyone have anything to add on this as of yet?

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:15 pm**

Not something we've heard before but I guess anything is possible. If you spot somethign let us know!

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:11 pm**

Obsolete wrote:I noticed that when using the scout option on infantry, I often take RANDOM damage to my units. I think this week I'll maybe delve a bit deeper into the algorithm for this, as I always hate not knowing how precisely something works.

Anyone have anything to add on this as of yet?

Yes ... And you don't have far to look ... In the Scout.bsf, first function that runs when you hit scout ... Read the last function it calls :

Code: Select all

SetUnitForReaction(me) ;

(my understanding) ... This means that if your unit has already been spotted (or the cover tiles been revealed), and you Scout, the enemy might react to you.

Now, I don't understand why they would want to react to you when you're simply scouting (not firing or moving). Unfortunately, without knowing whether the tile your unit is sitting on has been "spotted", it's difficult to safely scout unless you know for sure your unit and the tile hasn't been seen (or rather the cover tile's been revealed).

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:28 am**

Thanks Merr, now we are onto something...

This part is what puzzles me so far:

// increase view distance
ChangeViewDistance (me, 0, 20) ;
ChangeViewDistance (me, 1, 10) ;

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:15 am**

They allow you to see further - the 0 and 1 are the types (normal LOS, and into cover LOS).

The function is a helper fn that alters the attribs.

Cheers

Pip

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:43 am**

Hmm, now I can't remember how the night-time factors affect this.

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:10 am**

You will only get reacted to if you are visible so this is as intended.

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:27 pm**

Obsolete wrote:Hmm, now I can't remember how the night-time factors affect this.

The ChangeViewDistance (when you scout) is temporary, and lasts until the beginning of the players next turn. That reset to normal visibility is controlled by the script in the StartTurn.bsf.

In scenarios with reduced visibility (night battles), the visibility is reduced (every turn) by controlling the LOS and CoverLos attribute directly in the scenario's StartTurnPost function.

So, if you use the scout in a night battle, it will boost the view range from the already reduced LOS and CoverLOS values. Depending on what values were used, this could mean your scouting has given back your normal view distance.

The flow is like this ;

StartTurn ... reset normal view distance.

StartTurnPost ... (night) ... reduce view distance.

Scout ... boost view distance.

If you want a quick, playable example, try my Merr_Skirmish campaign ... The first scenario invokes fog (chance to lift/turn) and you can try the scout ability there. I gave the M3 HT this ability in that campaign, and if you can get that vehicle forward quickly you can scout ahead, then send a tank to within range (outside of the germans view range) and "ambush" them ... meaning, your tank might not be revealed, but at such a long range you would probably not kill it anyway.

Reduced view range and Scout works better as a German Player tactic since the German guns can reach out better than the Allied guns.

-Merr

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:50 pm**

iainmcneil wrote:You will only get reacted to if you are visible so this is as intended.

Indeed, it works as intended ...

I'm curious as to why you invoked a reaction to such an innocent action?

Is the scout unit shouting foul language at the enemy hoping the insult will provoke a reaction?

All in good fun Ian ... I can understand BA's concept as Newton's Third Law of Motion...
LAW III: To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction.

-Merr

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:21 pm**

The logic was that the scout action represented your guys crawling out a bit to have a peek which is why their view range is extended and why you can react to it. That's how I saw it in my head

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:07 am**

Hmm, well unfortunately it's only come in handy ONCE so far in my games this week, (spotted an MG waiting to ambush me so I got him first!). However, due to the fact that the PBEMs this year tend to only have limited turns due to the flag system, and that using the scout option effectively burns off one of those whole precious turns, this leaves the feature very limited.

Not saying there is anything wrong with the implementation, just that I find this only to be used sparingly (so far).

One other feature I'd really like to look more into is the HUNT one. I thought it was there to negate your move penalty, but it seems there are more variables to it than just that. For example, often when I move (hunt) to get closer to a target, my chance of delivering damage actually DECREASES!

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:17 am**

Obsolete wrote:Not saying there is anything wrong with the implementation, just that I find this only to be used sparingly (so far).

Agreed. It's hard to spare a unit to sit and watch with so little time. Perhaps when we can "split-squads" we can split an 8-Man squad off into a 5/3 squad ... 5-man squad with a 3-man scout in front!

Obsolete wrote:One other feature I'd really like to look more into is the HUNT one. I thought it was there to negate your move penalty, but it seems there are more variables to it than just that. For example, often when I move (hunt) to get closer to a target, my chance of delivering damage actually DECREASES!

The only time I see this is when you are approaching the target at an angle that defines the Front/Side or Side/Rear.

From my understanding, the armor angle is measured from the two tiles center-to-center. If the unit isn't facing exactly in one of the 8 directions, then that angle might be off just a hair (1 degree) and it might show a DECREASE in the overall kill chance.

Could that be the reason?

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:33 pm**

Well, I see this even when attacking infantry hiding in a bunker...

IIRC bunkers maybe also have different sided armour so I guess I"ll try to keep a closer eye on it. I guess it can also be more complicated depending which way the infantry inside are facing as well.

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:50 pm**

Obsolete wrote:Well, I see this even when attacking infantry hiding in a bunker...

IIRC bunkers maybe also have different sided armour so I guess I"ll try to keep a closer eye on it. I guess it can also be more complicated depending which way the infantry inside are facing as well.

Hmm ... I don't think the bunker has facings ... It should just be one cover value bonus.

If it's "HE Effectiveness" value that you're seeing (used for attacking soft stuff) ... then yeah, the infantry facing makes a difference.... over 60 degrees they lose some cover bonus.

So .... perhaps it's that fine line between 60 and 61+ degrees that you're seeing?

I mentioned adding another tooltip when you hover your mouse over the target ... the tooltip will convert that angle into target facing to help

Front/Side/Rear.

Posted: **Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:04 am**

Back in the old days I edited the scripts so my pop-up would tell me the angle, but if I try to edit the scripts now you're not going to be able to play multi-player.

I actually like the added security because you could mess up a lot of stuff, like giving yourself infinite movement or vision etc. However, this means I can't custom make my own information feedback scripts anymore. Maybe we can have a VERIFIED or CERTIFIED custom made script (for pros) with angle facings added, etc. sometime.

Anyhow, I could swear for sure now that bunkers were weaker at the rear...

But what gets me is.... I will HUNT toward a unit in a bunker, and despite moving say 5 tiles closer, my damage actually decreases often, it just seems.... I don't know. Maybe it makes sense if it's a hair of a degree off.

Sometimes I wonder if the damage should just scale naturally depending on the angle, instead of having such hard jump-points you cross that last micro of a millimetre.

I also noticed that when infantry carry out an ASSAULT, facing doesn't seem to matter. Not only that, but also normal speed or SNEAK speed also has no impact. I wonder if that was an over-sight.

Posted: **Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:53 am**

I'm far from understanding the scout option, and the reaction fire that sometime happens. I also noticed that sometimes the scout option doesn't show the enemy even if it is in the three squares range. I noticed this when it is in diagonal.

Also, as I see you understand deep in the game, can you please tell me how the LOS system works, as no body as answered my post
viewtopic.php?t=30177

Posted: **Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:41 am**

Sorry enric, I saw your post before, but I am relatively new again after a 1 year vacation from BBC, so I almost feel like I'm re-learning everything over again.

I will try to keep some more eyes on the LoS issues, though there are some other issues I want to examine further in the meantime.

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:57 pm**

enric wrote:I also noticed that sometimes the scout option doesn't show the enemy even if it is in the three squares range. I noticed this when it is in diagonal.

Right ... For the diagonal to work, they would need to add an extra 5 to the view distance, so it would read ;

Code: Select all

	ChangeViewDistance (me, 0, 25) ;
	ChangeViewDistance (me, 1, 15) ;

Instead of the 20 and 10 respectively.

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:05 pm**

Obsolete wrote:I also noticed that when infantry carry out an ASSAULT, facing doesn't seem to matter. Not only that, but also normal speed or SNEAK speed also has no impact. I wonder if that was an over-sight.

Could be an oversight ... The only facing check is done for vehicles.
WRT movement speed ... This goes back to the reaction chance as you approach the target you want to assault. Sneaking would cancel the added chance that it will react before you assaulted.

They could always change the odds in the attackers favor if it assaulted an infantry target from the side or rear.

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:15 pm**

You guys are really digging down! The LOS stuff I am looking in to, there may be bugs that we have missed along the way.

Iain would have to answer the other stuff - but I would assume it is all by design

.

Cheers

Pip

Slitherine

An investigation into the SCOUT option

An investigation into the SCOUT option

Re: An investigation into the SCOUT option