Slitherine

Ok here is my harebrained idea.

This Mod is not in any way glorifying any Nazi ideals nor condoning any of the actions of the Waffen SS during WWII. Nor is it going to be 100% historically correct as to dates that some of the Waffen SS units were given their intergral Panzer Standarten or other types of equipment. It's just my way of trying to represent an integral part of the Wehrmacht during WWII.

I'm going to make SS units that are tweaked,,cost a little more prestige,but will be stronger,not enough to affect game play,but to represent elite units.This is to allow the player to get a little stronger units,again w/o really affecting gameplay/balance.There will be no new flags or units,,etc. Just some new icons and tweaks to existing units.

These tweaks are my way to represent the difference of the TO&E and training (I hope) bwtn. Heer and Waffen SS units and a the greater overall espirit' de corps. of the Waffen SS even till' the end of the war. I didn't touch any of the Soft/Hard values ,other than the infantry,due to the fact that an 8.8cm ,is still an 8.8cm no matter who is firing it and will have the same range and penatration capabilities.The 8.8cm is just an example,but one that I hope conveys my reasoning.The only execption was I upped the 251/250's due to the fact the are transporting the same grunts that got their attack values upped.

The SE units will still be avail. in a later addition.I plan on doing the SS then adding all of the SE units and then making a Mod that combines both. This will eventually be 3 Mods. 1 SSMod(no bonus units),,1 SEMod(bonus),,and then 1 Mod that combines the both.

The 1st SS Mod is going to do away w/ the bonus units.The player will be able to buy the unit he wants,not get one randomly assigned.The drawback is that you lose the 3 extra slots,but I think that will be made up by the fact that the new units avail for purchse are a little better. My way of not trying to upset game balance. The capturable units in the DLC'S will still be there.

Here is the breakdown on the tweaks

SS Infantry:
60 more prestige than Heer counterparts (IE: if Heer unit costs 127 the SS unit will cost 187)
+1 in both Soft and Hard Attack
+1 Ammo
+1 Initiative

SS Armor/FlaK/Atry/AT:
30 more prestige than Heer Pz./FlaK/Arty/AT
+1 Ammo
+1 Initiative

SS Recon
45 more prestige than Heer Recon
+1 Spot (this is my way of trying to represent the greater use of motorcycles by the Waffen SS)
+1 Ammo
+1 Initiative

SS Transport (251/250 only)
15 more prestige than Heer Trans.
+1 in both Soft and Hard Attack
+1 Ammo
+1 Initiative

The 7.5cm FK16,3.7cmPak36,and 3.7 Flak37 are going to be made airborne,,no specific reason,,I just thought that it would be cool

If you want to be true to history you should pay attention to the fact, that SS units had high fatality rates
due to reckless attack style (fanatics!) and sometimes improper training.

So you may want to add -1 or -2 to defense ?

I think it would be hard to create a 'historical' SS unit - there would need to be a few that vary in stats from year to year.

- 39: very small units under army control
- 40: took part against France as independent SS units (LSSAH, Totenkopf)
- 42-43: SS Panzer Korps lavished with the best equipment due to Hitler's distrust of the army (and desire to have a 'private', politically reliable -fanatical - force). Huge losses at Kharkov, then with Manstein's leadership a great victory there, Hitler's Fire Brigade with Totenkopf and Wiking being thrown in to stop up holes and prevent utter disaster.
- 44-45: still getting the best equipment but have been affected by high losses and the need to recruit from an untrained pool.
- Kampfgruppe used to great effect at a tactical level, although at a command level the leadership was suspect (Diettrich)

And so it goes on, ignoring the mythology that has surrounded them from their inception - blond, blue-eyed Teutonic supermen etc etc.

Personally, while I agree that they were sometimes reckless, I would increase their defence due to their fanatical resistance, and their initiative due to tactics, but not their attack value (they are using the same equipment). Their cost should be higher, too - especially as they get the nice camouflage!

El_Condoro wrote:I think it would be hard to create a 'historical' SS unit - there would need to be a few that vary in stats from year to year.

Personally, while I agree that they were sometimes reckless, I would increase their defence due to their fanatical resistance, and their initiative due to tactics, but not their attack value (they are using the same equipment). Their cost should be higher, too - especially as they get the nice camouflage!

I concur,thus my statement above that it was not going to be 100% accurate.

I changed the attack values for the grunts to reflect the prolific use of automatic weps and AT training they recv'd,but not by much.

I thought about the defense tweak and decided not to change anything (yet)so that gameplay would not be affected to much,imo

The values I'm changing are not so much to "stay real",,but for game play and balance while still giving the player options for a "better" unit that he can purchase so that he gets the specific unit he wants instead of the randomness of the SE system,just costing a tad bit more.While trying to incorporate an important/intergral part of the Werhmacht into the game more,but again w/o disrupting balance or playability.

Like I said the SE's will be back later for those who still want them and there will be a greater selection of them to be awarded to the player.

Once this Mod is up and tested and running for a while I'll defintely change some of the values based upon user feedback.

Full release is going be a little bit ,however, due to the amount of work involved duplicaitng all of the Heer units into Waffens SS units and adding some of the skins. Then I've got to worry about the 1.05 patch and if the devs release a detailed patch changelog ,so I can just add/change stuff in the Mod's Data/EFX files,or if I'm going to have to re-do everything from scratch.

Anyway thanks for the interest in the thread and thanks for the comments , I will defintely keep them in mind for changes in the future

Well "Condor", we both are right.

According to wikipedia percentual losses of SS/Wehrmacht were 34,9 to 30.9 %.

But that's a sum up over the entire war.

According to german wikipedia SS losses in early war (France) were much higher, because of a nearly non existent officer (general) staff
which resulted in a "suicidal" attack style.

If you're "fit" in german see

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#Verluste

HtH

That's an interesting article - thankfully, Google Chrome does a reasonable job of translation! I guess like many things the bits of the story that are focused on are the more glorious or disastrous but overall the SS and army suffered about the same casualty rates. So do the SS need to have their own stats? Are the stats based on anything other than military folklore? I wonder how the elite army units went in comparison, such as Grossdeutschland...

El_Condoro wrote:. So do the SS need to have their own stats? Are the stats based on anything other than military folklore? I wonder how the elite army units went in comparison, such as Grossdeutschland...

Yes the stats are based upon something other than military folklore,a matter of fact something very much greater.

My personal experineces

I served in the US Army (101 abn/aaslt) and had numerous years in law enforcement ( a member of a "CERT" thru some of the time) and as a volunteer firefighter/emt (a member of a two special team in that field also,,Technical Rescue and a seperate R..I.T./FAST),so I can speak from the standpoint of being a member of an a "elite" orginization (x3)

Personel who recieve a high amount of training and consider themselves elite will preform differently from those who do not. They will also continue a struggle/mission while those around them flee and or give up on it.This has been proven in history time and time over (both civilian and military). Thus my interpretation of the stats to reflect this,while at the same time not disrupting gameplay. Also the actual TO&E of actual units.


I also have a personal library of over 200 books on WW II.

I never said I would not incoporate the elite Heer units.I actually had envsioned them to be the SE units (GD,,Pz.Lehr,,21st Pz.,Luftwaffe Field/Fallschirm,,etc..).They will also recieve tweaks to their stats to incorporate their elite status,btw I don't consider a 4.9% difference a huge margin

I'm not going to argue over this.I stated above that this mod was not going to be historically accurate.The units are not going to be named (other than the SS designator). They are just going to be avble for purchase. I aslo stated that after release I would make changes if warranted.Besides I'm the one who is doing the actual work of the conversion.Points have been made,,they are going to be taken under consideration.

If this is going to keep on going like this, I'll just ask to delete the thread and keep the changes for personal use

OK, I may be tired but I'm sick of people over-reacting to posts - I asked questions, not made statements. Just things to consider. Any moron knows elite units act differently and have higher levels of training and behave in a superior way because they believe they are superior. I am simply asking, with the SS, not a US elite unit, do the historical and verifiable facts stand up to the rhetoric. Did the SS actually, really, verifiably perform better than other units on average, across the span of the war? I had no intention of arguing over these things either - as you said in your first sentence - the SS were a criminal organisation and not worth getting upset about. I admire your 101st background but this post is about the SS - they are very different creatures.

The OP asked me to delete this thread.
For now, I'm just going to lock it.