Slitherine

As fun as it's been to read people's theorycraft, it's time to put some actual documentation behind the arguments.

Experience by itself is very powerful, and coupled with overstrength, can easily run away and create invulnerable units (units who deal outrageous damage to their enemies at little or even no risk of damage to themselves), a problem that was rampant in previous incarnations of this game. The last example of the 5 Star 15 Strength Panther G clearly demonstrates this is already capable of happening in Panzer Corps with our current rule sets and experience modifiers.

T34/85 vs Panther G. On the even playing field, Panther G comes out ahead by a good margin.


T34/85 (5 stars) vs Panther G. 5 stars completely alters the battle, that Panther G is going to get ROCKED.


T34/85 (15 strength) vs Panther G. Not as deadly as 5 stars, but an extremely costly battle and not an easy victory for the Panther anymore. This sort of battle, by the way, is a regular engagement on Manstein Difficulty. All Allied units have +5 strength (10 becomes 15 and anyone who was already a 15 becomes 20!).


T34/85 (15 strength AND 5 stars) vs Panther G. Game Over Panther G, Game over.


Me262 vs Yak9U On the even playing field, Me262 comes out ahead by a good margin.


Me262 vs Yak9U (5 stars) 5 stars completely alters the battle, that Me262 is at a serious disadvantage.


Me262 vs Yak9U (15 strength) Again, not as deadly as 5 stars, but an extremely costly battle and not an easy victory for the 262 anymore. This sort of battle, by the way, is a regular engagement on Manstein Difficulty. All Allied units have +5 strength (10 becomes 15 and anyone who was already a 15 becomes 20!).


Me262 vs Yak9U (15 strength AND 5 stars) Game Over Me262, Game over.


Now, let's look at the other side of the coin. As the German player, if you managed to get a 5 star 15 strength Panther G, in the current campaign or the DLC campaign...
This battle:

Panther G vs T34/85


Suddenly becomes this, a 0-10 perfect one shot with no risk of taking damage in return:

Panther G (15 strength AND 5 stars) vs T34/85


So, looking at these images... do we really want to make experience more powerful?


A lot of judgement so far has been 'wow my 0 experience units are doing so well, why should I ever elite them.'
Well... how much experience do your enemies have in the current campaign? Or DLC 1939 Polish, and DLC 1940 French?
Do you really think by the time we get to DLC 1944 Soviets, you are still going to be fighting 0 experience 0 overstrength units?

Kerensky wrote:Do you really think by the time we get to DLC 1944 Soviets, you are still going to be fighting 0 experience 0 overstrength units?

No idea. Will find out later.

Of course, and I look forward to that content too.
Better than these test tube examples, it will probably show the important of experience. Low level experience player units vs no experience enemy troops? I can understand why people think experience is not effective.

But once we have more content with high level experience troops on both sides? That's going to be game changing, and we have to be careful not to break the balance. As we see here, experience alone can radically change combat results between otherwise 'balanced' units.

Not to mention, high experience units with high kill counts are also going to have their HERO bonuses too.

Oh, and the result after I pushed the button:

Seems to me there is already a difference between the GC'39 and GC'40. The '39 campaign was like a tutorial compared to what I just went through on the first scenario of the '40 campaign. The enemy infantry was fanatical in its attacks and seemed much harder to destroy. Maybe it's just my imagination, but so far 1940 is looking a lot harder than 1939.

Kerensky, while what you write is of course correct, you picked units and situations in which the current XP system has it's maximum impact: late game tanks and fighters.
Initiative plays a large role in PzC combat, and the T-34/85 has 11 base initiative (vs. the Panther G's 12).
This means it's one of relatively few units whose base initiative is so high that the current 10% cap will come into effect, or in other words one of few units who gains a full point of INI for each star of experience. This means with 5 stars he has 16 initiative, which is what wins him the battle in your example. Well, what gets him excellent forecasts, anyway.
Same is true for your Yak 9U example, which conicidentally ALSO has 11 base initiative (vs. the Me 262a's 15).

That these units ALSO have high base attack values vs the respective targets you attack with them and thus gain +5 attack also plays a role, but I believe a smaller one.

Realistic combat situations which include close terrain, enemy units which are also experienced and overstrength, combined arms and so on will probably paint a slightly different picture, but it's of course only natural that you picked a clear-cut example to make your point.
Like I wrote, I believe INI has the highest impact in your example, and I do agree that a unit which gets 5 bonus at a base of about 10 (50%ish, in other words) doesn't need a deeper impact of XP. For comparison, the modifications that I'm currently testing out have 1/100, 2/20 and 2/20 instead of the stock 1/10 for all three (INI/ATT/DEF), which means the bonus to both tanks in your example for initiative would be identical.

But let's look at a unit from the other end of the power curve: ordinary Wehrmacht Infantry.
It's base initiative is a mere 2, so even with 5 full stars, the unit will get 5*10%, i.e. 0*0.2, i.e. 1 point of bonus initiative. And only at 5 full stars. With 4.95 stars, the bonus will be 4*10%, in other words 0.8 -> rounded DOWN. Which means, ZERO bonus for our Wehrmacht unit.
With my settings, this same unit would get a whopping 5 bonus to it's initiative, which is quite the difference.

If you look at a mid-range tank with, say 8 INI ... it'll get 5*0.8 or 4 INI at five full stars, which is also 50% - not bad.
However, with 4.95 stars, it'll only get 3 INI bonus, and with 3.95 stars only 2.

With my system, at five full stars, the bonus would be one point higher at 5, which is more, but not spectacular. Then the bonus would always be one point less for each star, and with even one star the unit would still get at least 1 point INI bonus. In the current system, the bonus with 1 star would be zero.

Granted, for VERY low power units, the gains would be SPECTACULAR vs. the current system, especially when facing unexperienced opposition - but that's not the norm, is it?
_____
rezaf

My approach to this was that exp bonus should never be more than 50% from the base stat. That is the reason why 10% setting is used. However, it might be a good idea to round the bonus to a nearest integer, not down at all times. I. e. 1.4->1 but 1.9->2.

I think the issue is with low-stat units, Infantry and early-war equipment.
They don't benefit as much from experience as units with 10+ values.

I assume it'd be too hard to have separate experience bonus stat values for different classes?

Fimconte wrote:I assume it'd be too hard to have separate experience bonus stat values for different classes?

Not hard technically, but confusing to people.

It seems that a difference of 5 stars to 0 gives quite strong results between tanks. i really appreciate you going to the effort and based on this exp looks pretty good.
I did some of my own tests between PZ IIIJ/s and T34 41 (even units) with a ratio of 3 stars to 0 and the results again quite strongly favoured the veteran tanks ( even a bit too predictably so ). However similar tests between wehrmacht 39 infantry vs soviet guards ( again evenly matched ) were far less conclusive and often showed the veterans getting belted. The results were actually quite random.
I don't know how to post screenshots but it seems that a 3 star advantage over enemy tanks helps but a similar advantage over enemy troops counts for little.

Rudankort wrote:Not hard technically, but confusing to people.

Maybe not confusing since the experience gathering is a bit opaque to the player anyway.

The thing with these 5-star examples is that now it can happen with the 60-70 GC DLCs scenarios, in the original PzC campaign none of my units reached full 5-star experience.

rezaf wrote:Kerensky, while what you write is of course correct, you picked units and situations in which the current XP system has it's maximum impact: late game tanks and fighters.

More the fighters than the tanks. Tanks can be supported\protected by other units, fighters are much more vulnerable.

soldier wrote:However similar tests between wehrmacht 39 infantry vs soviet guards ( again evenly matched ) were far less conclusive and often showed the veterans getting belted. The results were actually quite random. I don't know how to post screenshots but it seems that a 3 star advantage over enemy tanks helps but a similar advantage over enemy troops counts for little.

This is the result of lower initiative ratings of infantry (=> less exp bonus to initiative), but in fact, this might not be unreasonable - infantry units fight at close range, and at this range it is harder to avoid casualties and achieve perfect score against your opponent. Experience still gives you a nice bonus, and this bonus is further offset by possible overstrength, but the results are less spectacular than in case of tank vs. tank.

impar wrote: Maybe not confusing since the experience gathering is a bit opaque to the player anyway.

Experience gathering is opaque, but combat mechanics are not, and that's what most people care about.

Kerensky wrote:T34/85 vs Panther G. On the even playing field, Panther G comes out ahead by a good margin.

I'm new to this, so this might sound stupid, but how do I know that the Panther G comes out ahead by a good margin, considering that both tanks have a strength of 10 and the same experience?

Because the Panther is a better tank, it has stronger armour and a more powerful gun

Levada wrote:

Kerensky wrote:T34/85 vs Panther G. On the even playing field, Panther G comes out ahead by a good margin.

I'm new to this, so this might sound stupid, but how do I know that the Panther G comes out ahead by a good margin, considering that both tanks have a strength of 10 and the same experience?

Look at the image, the selected unit is marked with those white thingies, thats the T34. The T34 is aiming at the Panther (the red aiming reticule) and shows that if the T34 fires at the Panther the expected reults are -5 strength to the the T34 and -2 strength to the Panther.

Thanks impar.

- Those numbers (-5 and -2) change depending on strength and experience, right?
- Are there more factors that influence those numbers?
- You say: "expected" result. How random is that result? See, if i play a game like risk I know what my chances are (statistically), but how does that work in this game?

None of this is well explained in the manual as far as I can tell, unless I'm overlooking something. Also note that I never played Panzer General.

This is the result of lower initiative ratings of infantry (=> less exp bonus to initiative), but in fact, this might not be unreasonable - infantry units fight at close range, and at this range it is harder to avoid casualties and achieve perfect score against your opponent. Experience still gives you a nice bonus, and this bonus is further offset by possible overstrength, but the results are less spectacular than in case of tank vs. tank.

While i agree that infantry combat might be a more unpredictable affair, i think there may be some room for tweaking here. At the moment it seems that maintaining experience for your armoured force may yield better combat results but when it comes to troops its more cost effective to go with green recruits as your just as likely to take heavy casualties with veterans. It might be nice to get some more reward out of your veteran squads and as Impar has mentioned you should feel there loss because they are in fact irreplaceable. At the moment you can just buy a new squad and the problem is settled. I have similar issue's with the way you can trade in a PZ IV and buy a new Tiger 2 for half price, while if you attempt to maintain your experience, and upgrade, it costs the full 900. This makes it much more cost effective to go with green with your tank force as well.
So, far from being just theory i think there is something at the heart of the experience debate.

Levada wrote:Thanks impar.

- Those numbers (-5 and -2) change depending on strength and experience, right?
- Are there more factors that influence those numbers?
- You say: "expected" result. How random is that result? See, if i play a game like risk I know what my chances are (statistically), but how does that work in this game?

None of this is well explained in the manual as far as I can tell, unless I'm overlooking something. Also note that I never played Panzer General.

This is actually a bit OT, but nevertheless...
- Initiative influences who shoots first. The higher the initiative difference, the less opponents shoot back. You have initiative caps for different terrains.
- Then it comes to your attack value (soft attack/hard attack etc.) vs. their defense value (ground defense, air defense, etc.), e.g. tank vs. tank in the clear is hard attack vs. ground defense, AD vs. fighter is air attack vs. ground defense, bomber vs. ship is naval attack vs. air defense, etc. The higher the difference, the better your chances for a kill. Then suppression, then nothing. A "die" roll for each of your men. I don't know, how big a "die" is, though, whether 1-6 or 1-10 or anything else.

Take a look at the shortcuts. You can get a detailed combat prognosis by ctrl+click (i think). Take a look at a few, esp. different classes against each other on different terrain, and you will figure out a lot more. Like Anti-Tank on the attack getting a malus.

soldier wrote:So, far from being just theory i think there is something at the heart of the experience debate.

I don't disagree, just don't see a good solution yet. Infantry might use a bigger bonus to their initiative of 2, but tanks should not get a bigger bonus to their close defense of 2. How can we distinguish such special cases, without adding class-specific exceptions, something I would very much like to avoid?