Slitherine

Another unique outcome for Hylan Valley, thought I'd share a few details.

So apparently this was Monkspider's first ever multiplayer game, and he didn't do that badly. Final victory hex score was 5 to 4, with my British in the lead over his Germans.

His strategy revolved almost exclusively on playing defensively and using high armor units over high attack power units (Note the abundance of Jagdtigers)



Even though I held a 5 to 4 advantage for most of the game, his preference for a defensive stance instead of an offensive one created something of a stalemate. Me trying to grab additional victory hexes routinely ended in failure (I did grab two, but they were immediately retaken), so I was pretty much stuck with my 5. Unlike most of my games where casualties are rampant on both sides, this was a fairly low kill count game, where both sides had no problem filling all core slots with pricy and high quality units.

If he had a little more time, or started attacking the victory hex you see in the bottom left corner of the image sooner, he might have been able to tip the game to 4 to 5 his lead, and then just resumed his defensive stance.

All in all, another pretty unique outcome, and a pleasure to play.

Karensky,

Care to divulge any tips for playing as the British on this map (Hylan Valley)?

I am coming to the end of my first game on this map, playing as the British and the German player has basically spanked me!

My big problem is I have found the British armour to be completely outclassed by the German armour, even the Firefly and Comet tanks. He has several Tigers and Jagdpanthers that my armour barely makes a dint on, talking -1 or -2 damage, yet he is hitting my armour for -6 on average every engagement.

Makes it virtually impossible to get any offensive going.

Likewise his Me 262's have hammered my Glouster Meteors in the air so he got air supremacy

The British on this map is tricky, but by no means impossible to win with. My experience has been that, against an equally skilled German player, it is best to try to get 5 VH as opposed to getting more. Defending is not too difficult.

Ever since my defeat to rusikcanuk on this map, I have been refining my strategy for the British side. It generally involves avoiding a major German armor push and attacking elsewhere on the map. However, if the Germans are allowed to build up a large quantity of armor and wurfrahmen, things might be quite difficult to counter. Hence, I will go for attacks if only to weaken the Germans.

Keep in mind the Germans get less prestige than the British.

If the German player buys 2-3 Me-262s, he has little on the ground, go for a strong ground push.

I am somewhat busy right now, but maybe later, we can play a match on this map, and I can show you my British strategy.

Sounds like a plan PM me for a game!

I was thinking the next time I play on this map (as Brits) to go air heavy with tactical bombers to counter the German armour advantage.

Or using more AT guns in a more defensive strategy maybe an option.

I tried to slug the current game out toe to toe thinking my Fireflies and Comets would at least inflict some serious damage on the German armour.

However, the Jagd's, Tiger and Elefants just blitzed straight through me.

A Firefly 17 pdr AT gun should be doing more damage against the German heavy tanks than credited for on this map

Sherman Firefly has a Hard Attack of 22, Ground Defence 16 and Initiative 10.
Comet I has a HA of 25, GD of 20, Initiative of 10.

Tiger I has a HA of 17, GD of 23, Initiative of 11.
Tiger II has a HA of 24, GD of 26, Initiative of 14.

Elephant has a HA of 24, GD of 22, Initiative of 14.
JagdPanther has a HA of 24, GD of 19, Initiative of 14.
JagdTiger has a HA of 21, GD of 28, Initiative of 16.

As you can see the British cannot go toe to toe with the superior German armour, because the Sherman and the Comet both have inferior Ground Defence values.

The problem you're probably dealing with is that the Germans get to fire first, thus destroying and suppressing part of the unit because of their higher initiative.
So by the time the your unit gets to shoot back, it's effective strength is perhaps 4-6 or something along those lines.

So in reality, you should only attack armour that is suppressed by artillery or strategic bombers.

I have been playing Hylan Valley 2 times now, and I do not see a way to stop the German tanks.

And by German tanks I mean the Tiger2. Everything else (when it comes to the tank divisions) is just a waste of prestige for the Germans. A Jagdtiger can be a second solution when running low on prestige. The only time I managed to actually kill a Tiger2 was when I was able to lure him into one of the hill fields north of "Paris", surround it with anti-tanks (the soft targets, since the hard targets are just a waste against the panzers). Then move in from four sides and bring him down to 2, then kill him in the next turn.

If the German player plays well and keeps his tanks away from forests, bridges, rivers and hills, the British will face a nearly unkillable opposition. When I played the German, I saved my money for a Tiger2 every now and then and had 4 in the end. Enough to spearhead advances in the north and the south, while holding the forest in the middle.

It's hard for me to see how the British can stand a chance. The airforce is weak, way weaker than in original PG. Level Bombers, even the fattest, hardly suppress anything. Especially not the Kingtiger. In PG1 the best way to get rid of the KingTiger was to suppress with Level Bombers, and the big US Bombers managed to suppress 5-7 in the Ruhr scenario (or was that Allied General?). Then shove the Tiger in a suppression trap. Here the airforce is just a joke. Somehow my fighters were the best against the Tiger2, almost always managing 1 point of damage. Which I cant explain. Level Bombers didnt suppress it, tacticals, which are the weakest class in the whole game, didn't even dent it. Maybe 1 point every now and then. And artillery doesn't suppress Tiger2. Maybe 1 every now and then. If lucky. The Churchill is a nice roadblock for a Tiger2, but can't attack it. The Comet can attack, but doesn't survive the counterattack. All the while suffering under predicitions that turn out worse.

If it weren't for strategic interruptions with paratroopers, it's hard for me to see how the British can manage to more than slow down the Germans. Neither in the north nor in the south can the British advance, if on both fronts there are Tiger2 + mobile artillery + Wirbelwind. The middle is slow, since there is only one road with a bridge.

Didn't like this scenario at all.

Ahh the Tiger II debate. I said my piece about them in another thread, you can have a look there for details if you want.
viewtopic.php?t=27146&postdays=0&postor ... er&start=0

Hylan Valley is a slightly different beast though. As deducter said, the British advantage is their early lead and cheaper units. The British have a clear advantage in the early game over the Germans, but as the game goes on longer and longer, the Germans will gain the upper hand if they preserve their prestige carefully and get a good stockpile of high quality units built up.

Sure a smart German player will do everything he can to stay in the open and not fight in close terrain, but the map is littered with close terrain, and 100% of the victory hexes are in close terrain and surrounded on several sides by close terrain. The best British strategy is to really grab their early advantage though, and do their best to force the German to fight on terrain of the British choosing. Form defensive lines in the abundant forests of the map, force the German to either try to waste time by going the long way around or to risk fighting in close terrain.

In some of my more advanced games with advanced players, the British very quickly and easily get 5 or even 6 victory hexes, but they do suffer in the late game. My favorite trick for fighting the German armor is to put my tanks in forests and hills.

Yea that's right, I said close terrain.

It goes against all conventional wisdom, but in close terrain, where the King Tiger, Elephant, and Jagdpanther don't have their outrageous initiative advantage, the British tanks can actually get to fire first, especially if you give them some mass attack support. As long as you give your tanks some artillery support (priests are pro for this) they will be decently protected against infantry attacks.

In the open, it's a massacre.





In close terrain, it's a whole different game.





And if you bring your infantry support along and catch those German tanks or anti-tank units in close terrain, you're really going to be able to put the hurt on the German player.



But all this aside, with the big balance patch coming out, this problem will further be addressed, especially with tactical bombers not being so useless in Late War.

Heh, I haven't had too much of an opportunity to exploit the initiative cap of close terrain, but I have thought about that, and it does seem it clearly has a big effect.

This is not that surprising, however. Any Sherman will likely get crushed in the open by a Panther, but in France, many Shermans exploited the Bocages to surprise superior German tanks and destroy them up close.

As the British, I've never failed to get 5 VH on turn 2, and almost always can get to 6 by turn 3. Then I see where the German player is attacking, and what units he gets, and I place delaying units along his main axis of advance and try to attack through an alternate path. I tend to get infantry and save some core slots open until I see what the opponent is getting. If the German player stumbles armor onto close terrain early on, I will crush it with my infantry. If not, I will try to exploit some weakness and attack with armor through there. If all of this fails, and the German player is being defensive, then I'll generally concentrate artillery and try to force a river crossing, hopefully draining him of enough prestige. What cannot happen is to allow the Germans to get all heavy armor and 7-8 Wurfrahmen, in which case nothing can stop that.

Thanks for the great tip with British tanks in close terrain. I am generally not too afraid of the Kingtiger, just on this map. Just crushed a friend of mine in Bocage Breakout, where he thought Kingtigers were of any use. Its just here, where a well played German can avoid the close terrain very well in the north and south and manage to grab enough VPs for victory.

And nice to hear that a balance patch comes. When I looked at my campaign and where my strategic mistakes were that turned it into an unwinnable desaster one mistake i identified was buying another useless tactical bomber. Apart from way too many infantry, Making Kursk impossible.

Excellent writeup Kerensky! First of all, let me thank you for taking the time to play against me. It has been an honor to play against a member of the development team such as yourself, especially one so bright and creative and willing to engage with the fans.

Now, that said, I was very pleased with the results of the match! When you are playing against Kerensky, the question is not whether you are going to win or lose but simply how badly you are going to lose. So going into this match, I knew I was going up against the best in the business and my goal was not so much to win but simply to avoid getting completely stomped if I could avoid it. I remember finding Kerensky's tutorial videos on the Low Countries scenario to be a revelation. His revolutionary tactics caused me to rethink how I played the game and taught me a lot of valuable lessons. Actually playing against Kerensky has taught me even more.

Kerensky started off the game strongly, on the very first turn that our forces made contact he caused one of my strongest armored units (I believe it was a Panther) to surrender. This set the tone of the match and put me on the defensive. My playstyle is inherently cautious and defensive by it's very nature. As a general, I am probably a cross between Kesselring and George McClelland. One of my goals was to form strong defensive lines that would seek to prevent the encirclement tactics that Kerensky is so famous for.

The battle began with his units assaulting my position in the North, I held out for a good while, but he eventually broke through and I retreated my units across the river. From there, a stalemate settled for the middle part of the game. He made several attempts to cross the river, but each attempt was crushed. This staelmate held up large forces of units upon the river that runs from the north to the center of the map. Since his forces in these sectors were so strong, I concluded that his troops in the south had to be comparatively weaker, so I secretly built up forces to launch a massive offensive toward the southern portion of the map.

By the time I attacked in the south, the game was about 2/3rd over. The offensive intially met minimal resistance and several cities fell, including an objective city. Kerensky now only led 5-4, taking one more objective would put me in the lead but resistance was beginning to stiffen considerably. The last objective was in sight, I only needed to push forward a little more but Kerensky's armored units were forming an impenetrable wall. At this point, I decided to launch a general offensive all over the map, I didn't seriously think any of these smaller offensives would gain much traction but I hoped to freak him out a bit and possibly force him to divert some forces from the south.

In the end though, my units reached the final objective but couldn't quite take it. If I had maybe one or two more turns, I might just have been able to do it. As Kerensky pointed out, I did use a large force of jagdtigers since I thought these were more cost-effective for dealing with his armor but they left me with few options to deal with his entrenched infantry. In hindsight, I should have purchased a larger infantry force to supplement my armored units and generally use less of the jagdtigers and other anti-tank units.

I thank Kerensky for taking the time to play against me. It was a fun one and seeing his tactics firsthand have made me a better player.