Slitherine

Gang,

I've been considering the cost/benefit of Axis refusing the French Armistice, and I'd like to hear what you all think about this.

PRO:
Axis gains production from all of France
No Vichy = no possibility of activation of Free French prior to Nov. '42
Spanish Tungsten PP's (2/turn)
French colonies now open to attack w/out having to DoW Vichy
(The big one) Chance to activate Spain as Axis minor ally, including a shot at taking Gibraltar.

CON:
Allies get surviving French fleet and (if Ally player is smart about it) French airforce
Axis is forced to lose time, oil, manpower, PP's in hunting down every last French unit
If trying to occupy French N. African cities ungarrisoned, a delay in taking Paris (loss of PP's, tying up units)
More cities to garrison & more French partisans
Loss of time occupying all of France, seizing N.Af. cities means loss of preparation for Barbarossa and likely loss of opportunity to take Yugoslavia.

My conclusion: The costs, in most cases, will outweigh the benefits. Yes, Axis may get Spain, including all the units & PP's that go with them, but the Allies get potentially 2BB, 1DD, 1sub, and maybe 1 air wing. True, perhaps during the conquest of France one or more French naval units was sunk... but that's not a freebie. That means combat, likely losses, oil expenditure, etc. Above all, I think anything but a quick grab of empty cities without having to fight for them will mean simply too much time and effort lost to justify the gains.

In SuperMax's AAR vs. Moriss, he was able to very quickly, very easily get Spain on his side. In that case, his choice was almost certainly justified. But even then, look at the AAR--he had to fight many battles vs. the French fleet that he'd normally not have to fight.

Please chime in with your own ideas.

--Diplomaticus

I totally agree, but I think that it is fully intended that refusing the armistice is normally not the best option. It will always be the more risky option and it is doubtful that even if the Axis get Spain to join the Axis that its worth this benefit. It really depends on how the fall of France plays out. If the Axis manage to destroy the French FTR and several French naval units with low losses, then it can be worth the try.

Last but not least I think you forget some benefits for both scenarios. If you reject the armistice you can better fortify North Africa with the Axis. Especially Tunis can be easier defended, as you will normally get the city rather easily occupied.

However, if you accept the armistice offer, the Allies will have to DOW Vichy France in a normal game, i.e. if they do Torch to capture Tunis and get the Free French Forces.

Cheers Zechi

I think the option is good if the Allied player was exceptionally suicidal in France. If both the Allied and Axis losses are high and you see no chance of a successful Sea Lion in 1940, then go for it. Otherwise, it's probably better to stick with Vichy.

Rejection of the French armistice offer was added to give the Germans an option if the French made a lot of suicide attacks with their units prior to the fall of France. Some Allied players started to attack everywhere with the French to take some German steps with them before they surrendered.

If the Allied player does that now he can be punished by an Axis rejection of the armistice offer. This means that the French should try to save their navy and maybe even the airforce so they get these very valuable units if the armistice offer is rejected anyway.

So the norm will be to see the armistice offer accepted, but against very aggressive Allied players you can reject it and maybe benefit from it. I think the Supermax vs Morris is a good example of when the Axis should reject the armistice offer.

Taking Gibraltar means Italy has a much improved chance to last longer in the game. With Spain in the game it should be easy for the Axis to then take Suez. Obviously, this seals the Med and Italy is almost guaranteed to last until 1944 at the very least. Whether or not the Axis should continue on to Iraq depends on the timeframe with which we are working. With a normal Barbarossa start in 1941, Suez would be enough. The 1942 Barbarossa start is a largely unexplored option for the Axis but with Iraq for oil, another 10-12 turns of easy oil, the Axis should be able to build and maintain a very teched-up mechanized army that totally outclasses anything the Russians could possibly have, since their research labs are severely limited in number until war declaration.

ive done it witout vichy and french surrendered but not vichy even after taking all of africa still no surrender.