Slitherine

Many people fell that the Russian winter offensive is a bit too strong in 1941. The changes below are suggested to do something about that.

Please vote on the following.

1. Spawn date for the Russian Siberian reserves.
a. Turn 40 (October 20th 1941) as now
b. Turn 41 (November 9th 1941) 1 turn later
c. Turn 42 (November 29th 1941) 2 turn laters

The reason for a later spawn turn is that the shock armies were formed in December 1941 according to Wikipedia. The saw action after that time only. If they spawn near Omsk by the end of November 1941 half of the units will rail to the front line by December 19th 1941 and the other half by January 8th 1942). This means these units won't be as devastating as now.

2. Spawn leader can be changed so Russia doesn't get one of the best leaders (Chuikov). Then they have to purchase him instead. Russia should get one of the real shock army leaders instead.

a. Keep Chuikov (5-1-1)
b. Replace by Kuznetsov (3-0-0. leader of the 1st Shock army to May 1941)
c. Replace by Meretskov (5-0-0. leader of the Volkhov front which commanded the 2nd Shock army)
d. Another leader. Please suggest.

3. Change attack factor when attacking across river. Vote yes or no for the proposed change.
Current settings:
ATTACK_ACROSS_RIVER_FAIR 50 /* Attack efficiency percentage when attacking across river in fair weather */
ATTACK_ACROSS_RIVER_MUD 35 /* Attack efficiency percentage when attacking across river in mud weather */
ATTACK_ACROSS_RIVER_WINTER 70 /* Attack efficiency percentage when attacking across river in winter weather */
ATTACK_ACROSS_RIVER_SEVERE 70 /* Attack efficiency percentage when attacking across river in severe winter weather */

Proposed change:
ATTACK_ACROSS_RIVER_WINTER 50 /* Attack efficiency percentage when attacking across river in winter weather */

This means that attacks across river in winter weather is the same as fair weather (50%) because the river hasn't frozen over yet. 70% attack value will only take place during severe winter when the rivers had frozen completely. That will only happen in Russia.

The important change by doing this is that the Russians won't be able to strike as hard in Russia in November / December 1941 before the severe winter. So they better wait until then to launch the offensive.

A good thing about these minor changes is that they're supposed to remedy the 1941 Russian offensive and not the general balance between the sides. Russia is quite weak in 1942 so we shouldn't weaken them generally. We just want them to be a bit more careful about their offensive in 1941.

The river change will make it slightly harder to attack across river in the west since severe winter won't take place there.

4. Tech focus

Only allow countries that are at war to set tech research focus. Neutral countries will have only balanced research. This will help a bit against max/min research for especially USSR, but also to some degree USA. Italy won't be affected much because they join the Axis in 1940 after less than 1 year since the war began. So while a country is neutral you can only decide which new labs to buy, but you can't e. g. just focus on dogfight, artillery or blitzkrieg until you get into the war.

Vote

1 c
2 a
3 yes
4 big yes

Schnurri wrote:Vote yes for both

There are actually 4 different proposals there.

Vote

1 b
2 a
3 yes
4 yes

Just a comment, if I remember correctly several changes were introduced in the past, because the Axis were to strong in 1941 and did get usually farther then in the real war. Therefore, the strategical reserves,the supply 3 zone nearer to the west as well as earlier Siberian reserves were introduced to the game. If we feel that the Axis are to weak (which is not my opinion), why don't we remove these things first, before changing things like the techs?

Vote "a" on 1.

I understand it only took a month for the Soviets to rail in 30 Siberian divisions by about mid-november, and the winter offensive was set and ready for a launch on Dec.5, so how could the Siberians only be showing up at Omsk around then? One of the first units to arrive was the 32nd Siberian rifle division which was sacrificed to buy time for the defenders. The leading elements were in place as early as Oct.10.

Sources:

1. Wikipedia: Battle for Moscow

2. Bishop (2008) _German Infantry in WWII_ p.89. MBI

3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/32nd_Rifle ... iet_Union)

Seems the problem is Allies being able to project sizable offensive power already in '41-'42. I would say many players are hesitant to try it since it can be risky, esp. for newer players but for those who can and are willing to play aggressive it can give great rewards. This is a problem in many other ww2 games too.

Allies did still manage to stop Axis advance eventually so defensive abilities should remain while something be done to reduce the early offensive capability.

1. B (Another thing to consider IMO could be to replace 2 (or even all) Siberian MECHs with INF in order to curtail the offensive power. I don't think Shock Army has to be necessarily represented by MECH.)

2. C (Well, anything but Chuikov really, even no leader if need be, but Meretskov for now.)

3. Yes (I don't think this has that much effect on Eastern Front until fighting moves back to Poland (should still be good to slightly reduce the steamroller effect of late game that has been seen so far) but obviously will change the Western Front dynamic. I think it's good. Some probably won't like the effect on western blitz though.)

4. Yes (However, I do think, that in supermax-morris game (where this comes from right?), Morris is neglecting industry/organization, and probably air too, leading to serious problems later. Obviously he doesn't seem to care that very much instead relying on the early (and often suicidal) offensives on both fronts. Whether it works this time remains to be seen but it has worked well before and I can see how this can be a big problem for players of lesser skill than supermax (including me I think) thus the small yes.)

1-B
2-C
3-None, i don´t think we need to change at all. A lot of changes that have been done lately seems to hampere the abillity to be aggressive. Small changes here and there that makes a risky attack not worth it anymore. Being bold should pay off if successful
4-No

My Votes

1- a

2- a

3- Yes the change to 50 in Winter

4- no, but I would like to have more tech focus points for the US. The US only gets 3 focus points until mid 44 where they get 1 more for (4) and then three more in 45. I do not believe this represents the tech advances or changes for the US. So if you make bad choices you can not recover.

As a proposal what if we allow for free to go to a balanced tech ? It does not cost a focus point to go back to balanced research , only if you desire to focus on a specific field of research.

pk867 wrote: As a proposal what if we allow for free to go to a balanced tech ? It does not cost a focus point to go back to balanced research , only if you desire to focus on a specific field of research.

I like this one. Or at least take the focus off for free when the tech is maxed.

zechi wrote:Just a comment, if I remember correctly several changes were introduced in the past, because the Axis were to strong in 1941 and did get usually farther then in the real war. Therefore, the strategical reserves,the supply 3 zone nearer to the west as well as earlier Siberian reserves were introduced to the game. If we feel that the Axis are to weak (which is not my opinion), why don't we remove these things first, before changing things like the techs?

I just wanted to comment that the Axis is generally not too weak. It's more that the Russian winter offensive has a stronger punch than anticipated. Up to the 1941 winter offensive the changes we made before seem to work quite well. In 1942 the Russians are actually quite hard pressed.

The only problem I see is that the winter offensive seem to be more brutal for both sides in GS than it was in the real war. The shock units were introduced to give Russia the offensive capability to actually break the German defense line where these units were placed.

I don't have a problem with the Russian winter offensive from the start of the severe winter. These should bite and cause the Germans to retreat there.

The problem I see is that in many games the offensive starts even before the severe winter begins and last until the weather is fall again. That means draining of German strength for many turns.

Good Axis player can contain the Russian winter effort, but it's very hard for the less experienced Axis players. Some see an Axis collapse during this time.

I think the most important change is to let the river attack be 50% instead of 70% in regular winter. That means the Russian winter offensive will not be as lethal before the severe winter starts and after it ends. So Axis players can retreat to a river line and hope to contain the Russians there. Then they can attack back when the weather changes.

Exploits like Morris is doing is hard to counter. It's strange that he can manage to get higher techs with Russia in key areas than the Germans have. Therefore I think not being able to set tech focus while a country is not at war is important. That means the Russians might only put labs in armor, but not full focus on e. g. blitzkrieg until they get at war. In "normal" games you don't see max/min dealing with techs as much so these players won't suffer from not being able to select focus for USA and USSR before they get to war.

I agree with the suggestion that you only use focus points when you set a tech focus. When you set it back to balanced you shouldn't spend a point.

I see that we get a lot of different feedback here. So far I think the votes seems to point towards.

1b. Delay the Siberian reserves 1 turn
2c. Replace Chuikov with Meretskov
3. Yes
4. Undecided, but leaning towards yes

1.a
2.b
3. no change
4 yes

1 a
2 b
3 No
4 No

If we choose 3 & 4 , It will make game unbalanced to the Axis side !

Morris wrote:1 a
If we choose 3 & 4 , It will make game unbalanced to the Axis side !

Why?

3. This is only affect winter turns and you don't have many winter turns each year in western Europe. In USSR you have some, but more severe winter turns. Attack of 50% instead of 70% and full attack from air units for the Russians still make it possible to inflict damage in river attacks. If you don't put any research into air tech for Russia then river attacks in winter will be more difficult, but most Allied players don't ignore the Russian air tech.

4. Most players don't use a lot of research focus before USA and USSR get at war so it should have little consequence.

I think it's a bit strange that you've always claimed that the game is too biased in favor of the Allies and if we make the minor changes in 3 and 4 then the game is suddenly biased in favor of the Axis.

1. yes to delay siberian reserves 1 turn
2. yes to replace Chuikov by Meretsov
3. yes to set 50 attack penalty both in winter weather
4. yes to allow the countries not at war to buy labs but not to use focus points

Stauffenberg wrote:

Morris wrote:1 a
If we choose 3 & 4 , It will make game unbalanced to the Axis side !

Why?

3. This is only affect winter turns and you don't have many winter turns each year in western Europe. In USSR you have some, but more severe winter turns. Attack of 50% instead of 70% and full attack from air units for the Russians still make it possible to inflict damage in river attacks. If you don't put any research into air tech for Russia then river attacks in winter will be more difficult, but most Allied players don't ignore the Russian air tech.

4. Most players don't use a lot of research focus before USA and USSR get at war so it should have little consequence.

I think it's a bit strange that you've always claimed that the game is too biased in favor of the Allies and if we make the minor changes in 3 and 4 then the game is suddenly biased in favor of the Axis.

I will show you the reason after the present AAR with Max & Plaid by starting another AAR which I will play Axis . It will be my great pleasure if I have a chance to play that AAR with you .

1) b
2) b
3) Yes
4) Yes

I think #4 is important to prevent early exits by the Allies, but, it would cripple the Russians if the Germans delayed Barbarossa. Is it possible to code it such that they have no research focus until Stalin orders the mobilization and then let them focus research?