Slitherine

When did the Longbow become the weapon of legend in Feudal warfare?
The perceived wisdom is that Edward I adopted it into his army after conquering Wales in the 1270's & using it against the Scots to deadly effect.
However, did the Welsh use the Longbow against the Normans or any of their Saxon enemies in the Dark Ages? Are there any records of the Longbow in Wales pre-1270's?

And as an aside do the HYW English in France get Pits as Field Fortification, or as obstacles like Stakes were in the latter half of the HYW?



Cheers,
Jer

Can I suggest a book called "The Great Warbow" by Strickland and Hardy as a fairly definitive study of the "longbow" and also very readable and easily obtained (and not too expensive) if you are interested in this.

You will find that it has influenced AoW in some ways

Longbows were probably introduced to the Welsh by the Vikings, who used them.

the myth that drawing to the ear makes them better is another old hoary one - modern archers reckon that each inch (2.5cm) of extra draw adds about 2 lbs to the draw weight - mind you that's for relatively light bows up to 55-60 lb. You might get a bit more for a 150lb longbow - maybe 3 lb?? so changing your anchor point from the side of your mouth to your earlobe will add about 4-6 lb to the draw weight - or you could just tiller your bow to have 4-6lb more draw, draw it to your mouth as always, and it will last longer!!

[quote="stalins_organ"]Longbows were probably introduced to the Welsh by the Vikings, who used them.


But why were only the Welsh who took it up as their weapon of choice?
Ireland, Northern Germany, France & England all had Viking settlements at one time or another, yet there's little or no evidence that they took it up like the Welsh did.


Cheers,
Jer

But why were only the Welsh who took it up as their weapon of choice?
Ireland, Northern Germany, France & England all had Viking settlements at one time or another, yet there's little or no evidence that they took it up like the Welsh did.


Cheers,
Jer[/quote]

Because it's a known fact that the Welsh are clever...ask Anne Robinson

Ridd

But why were only the Welsh who took it up as their weapon of choice?
Ireland, Northern Germany, France & England all had Viking settlements at one time or another, yet there's little or no evidence that they took it up like the Welsh did.


Cheers,
Jer

Huge supply or walking white targets to practice on

Si

Huge supply or walking white targets to practice on

Si[/quote]

Yep, that's why they weren't BAA'd shots

ridd

riddcowler wrote: But why were only the Welsh who took it up as their weapon of choice?

Well some Welsh did. It is possibly because it is a cheap wepon - Welsh were poor - and effective in the type of warfare the Welsh generally used - which wasn't set piece battles in the main.

Also you need to remember that it really wasn't uniquely Welsh as providing a bow and arrows was a requirement of Englishmen of the poorer classes in statutes of the Anglo-Norman period. In fact the bow was a significant weapon in the period - Northallerton anyone - and its use alongside dismounted milites was a common tactic; one that was then dropped for unknown reasons to be rediscovered in the early C14th. There is, BTW, no reason to suppose the English bow at the time was materially different from the Welsh one.

I'd also suggest that Edward I used Welsh archers because they were cheap and it took away a potential disruptive element when he was campaigning in the north. Also remember his armies contained a lot of English archers as well and it was these that did the damage at Falkirk as the Welsh were refusing to fight to begin with.

Yep - wargamers often fixateon weapons and ignore stuff like Nik's posts - longbows were not uniquely Welsh, and the main reason for using troop "x" is often that they are cheap.

Why did the south Welsh adopt them and not others? Dunno - why did the Romans adopt the Pila, or the Swiss and Macedonians the Pike? Because someone at the time saw an advantage to it.

Bows are better weapons for hunting than spears or javelins so are arguably more suitable for crop-poor areas where subsistance hunting is a norm - does that fit south Wales rather than north Wales? I don't know, but I invite you to think of reasons why they might have adopted the weapon.

Why did the south Welsh adopt them and not others? Dunno - why did the Romans adopt the Pila, or the Swiss and Macedonians the Pike? Because someone at the time saw an advantage to it.

My understanding is that the Welsh were attempting to adapt to the more numerous cavalry / knights that suddenly started appearing in English armies.

The North Welsh evolved Long Spear tactics and the South Welsh got the bow. Possibly because of the influence of the English in the South (and hence more availability of the weapon). Of the top of my head I believe an English Knight of the feudal period was required to bring along a couple of Archers with equipment when required by the King. Probably cos they didn't trust the peasants to stand in the open, unless behind stakes and fortifications.

Obviously the terrain in Wales didn't suit more traditional mounted tactics so they developed foot tactics, which unless you want a static defence, probably meant using the bow.

Thought HWY Longbow would have made superior (if not elite!). They fought specially hard, in some rather bad situations. They were specially seclected far more than Galoglaich and Swiss infantry, I think the English longbowman had a feared reputation as much. They seem to have out performed the Scots bow, including on the continent. It would make them better than a standard retinue archer, as well as better than the Picards. The English longbowmen seem to have out performed on the continent incomprasion with what they did in Britain and the Burgundian or French armies that used the longbow.

Also - (I know OT); Why does a higherlander and isles not get troops any troops rated as good as Galoglaich- though that is were the Galoglaich came from.

jamesluton wrote:Thought HWY Longbow would have made superior (if not elite!).

Here we go again!

Cheers,
Scott

In period the Longbowmen perform very well at average. The swordsman skill helps. Almost everything that matters is Arm+ so they outperform bow and crossbow.

I think they only really did very well behind stakes so they have been givent hat which makes them better than Sup vs mounted.

Si