Slitherine

Unit A routs from combat but has a friend B behind it and an enemy E also behind it. Less than a stand's width separates friend B and enemy E. Friend B is closer to Router A than is enemy E. Router A rolls VMD and his move is far enough to contact either or both B and E. Router A can shift 1 stand either way avoiding either the friend or the enemy or drop back stands to do the same thing.

The problem is that page 67 says no shift/contraction is allowed if you can't avoid enemy. It also says that if you can't shift or contract to avoid friends then you burst through friends with no shift/contraction. But such a move would carry A into enemy E causing it to stop without finishing its rout move and leave it partially interpenetrated with friend B. But page 49 says to move routers beyond friends if there is room and their move would not completely clear friends.

So, do you consider the friends as burst through and router A is destroyed because it can't bypass enemy E (pages 100, 101)? Or, do I allow router A to shift to bypass enemy E and burst through friend B and finish its move beyond friend B? Or, do I shift the router to avoid his friends and destroy him at the end of the phase? Any way I do it, I'm going to break a rule.

......EE
BB..EE
BB


...AA
...AA (Direction of rout is up)

This actually happened last night.

Routing units use the rules for Evades (starting on p. 64)

If a routing unit cannot avoid all obstructions (including fresh enemy) by the 1 base shift, no shift is allowed and it instead bursts through friendly troops and stops 1 MU from the enemy BG (p. 67, 2nd column).

If the enemy BG is 1 MU or less away from the router, then the router unit does not move at all (also per p. 67).

If the enemy BG is more than 1 MU away from the router, then the router bursts through the friendly unit, drops it a cohesion level, stops 1 MU from the enemy BG and is destroyed at the ened of the current phase (p. 100).

So you are saying that you consider the friends as burst through because it started the interpenetration before it came within 1 MU of enemy E and router A will be destroyed at the end of the phase because it can't bypass enemy E and can't complete its rout move?

Yes

Yeah, I tend to agree. So far, no one has mentioned any clever little part of the rules that would address this situation that I've overlooked.

I am travelling on a sunday afternoon, but I recall there is a clause that says if a router cannot complete its rout move it is removed.

Depending on exact wording and positions. The router would not move and siply dissapear at the end of the phase.

The issue is you can't move part way through a friendly BG. Your bases are either beyond if room or in front.

So again with out rule book i think this may not work this way.

Now I could re-engineer positions to get something similar.

hazelbark wrote:I am travelling on a sunday afternoon, but I recall there is a clause that says if a router cannot complete its rout move it is removed.

I think we covered that, Dan

Hazelbark wrote:The issue is you can't move part way through a friendly BG. Your bases are either beyond if room or in front.

This is what I think we overlooked. P. 49 BURSTING THROUGH FRIENDS, 1st bullet, left hand column

Move the evading or routing battle group to the full extent of its move. If its move does not completely clear all friends, it is placed beyond any battle group(s) it is currently bursting through if there is room for it beyond, otherwise it is destroyed and removed from the table. No cohension test is taken for friends seeing this.

Since the wording of the rule indicates the battle group moves as far as it can (in the OP stopping 1 MU from fresh enemy) and is then picked up when it cannot complete its move, the burst through battlegroup still drops a cohesion level.

Yep, that is the conundrum. Any comments based on the rules would be appreciated because it seems like whatever we do we break one of the rules. If we are going to break a rule, which should we break? I wonder how RBS would handle this?

I've had it ruled both ways at competition in UK, rather dissapointing. IMO they are destroyed before going through anyone, but the rules are flawed

bbotus wrote: So, do you consider the friends as burst through and router A is destroyed because it can't bypass enemy E (pages 100, 101)? Or, do I allow router A to shift to bypass enemy E and burst through friend B and finish its move beyond friend B? Or, do I shift the router to avoid his friends and destroy him at the end of the phase? Any way I do it, I'm going to break a rule.

......EE
BB..EE
BB


...AA
...AA (Direction of rout is up)

This actually happened last night.

Unclear from the diagram whether BB is more than 1MU proud of EE. I'm assuming it is, as otherwise the burst through won't happen.

I don't see why you have to break any rules here. As I see it:

- no shifts or contraction by AA as that won't get them past.
- AA bursts through BB. "must instead burst through any friendly battle group in its normal ... path". BB drops a level "battle groups even partially burst through drop 1 level of cohesion immediately"
- AA move to the full extent of it's move. Which is not going to be much as it stops 1MU short of the enemy. It cannot
- When it gets to 1MU of EE AA will stop and end it's evade move. "must instead halt 1 MU away from any enemy battle group in its path". The general movement section says "(if the) move does not completely clear all friends, it is placed beyond any battle group(s) it is currently bursting through if there is room for it beyond". There isn't room for it beyond, as there is part of EE there.

I think a conflict of rules would occur if BB were, say, a deep column with space behind it and EE were a shallow formation. One rulle says place behind BB, and another says halt in front of EE. In such circumstances, I think you have to go with common sense. For me, that sayss BB drops a level, AA stops in front of EE then gets removed.

grahambriggs wrote:

bbotus wrote: So, do you consider the friends as burst through and router A is destroyed because it can't bypass enemy E (pages 100, 101)? Or, do I allow router A to shift to bypass enemy E and burst through friend B and finish its move beyond friend B? Or, do I shift the router to avoid his friends and destroy him at the end of the phase? Any way I do it, I'm going to break a rule.

......EE
BB..EE
BB


...AA
...AA (Direction of rout is up)

This actually happened last night.

Unclear from the diagram whether BB is more than 1MU proud of EE. I'm assuming it is, as otherwise the burst through won't happen.

I don't see why you have to break any rules here. As I see it:

- no shifts or contraction by AA as that won't get them past.
- AA bursts through BB. "must instead burst through any friendly battle group in its normal ... path". BB drops a level "battle groups even partially burst through drop 1 level of cohesion immediately"
- AA move to the full extent of it's move. Which is not going to be much as it stops 1MU short of the enemy. It cannot
- When it gets to 1MU of EE AA will stop and end it's evade move. "must instead halt 1 MU away from any enemy battle group in its path". The general movement section says "(if the) move does not completely clear all friends, it is placed beyond any battle group(s) it is currently bursting through if there is room for it beyond". There isn't room for it beyond, as there is part of EE there.

I think a conflict of rules would occur if BB were, say, a deep column with space behind it and EE were a shallow formation. One rulle says place behind BB, and another says halt in front of EE. In such circumstances, I think you have to go with common sense. For me, that sayss BB drops a level, AA stops in front of EE then gets removed.

My thoughts exactly.

OK, I think I see what you are saying. Page 49 says that if a routing BG does not completely clear all friends, it is placed beyond the BG it is currently bursting through if there is room for it beyond, otherwise it is destroyed and removed from the table. AA cannot be placed beyond its friend BB because enemy EE is there. So in this case, since AA cannot complete its rout move, it is just picked up. And, BB drops one cohesion level.

Thanks for the help.