Slitherine

This suggestion is based upon the discussion in Leridano's thread about changes to ZOC rules.

I don't think we should prevent units from attacking after discovering units because it would disrupt e. g. sub warfare against convoys and regular naval combat. Instead I propose the following.

1. Unspotted hexes will cost +1MP to enter for land units (not naval units). Air units can't move to unspotted hexes (only attack).

2. Air units can fly to unspotted enemy hexes and perform a recon mission (we need to create an icon for it similar to paradrop).

3. The spot around hex command will be done on the target hex.

4. Spotting range can be:
a. a fixed number like a range of 1 hex from the target hex to not reveal too big areas. (that means target hex plus all adjacent hexes)
b. a fixed number like a range of 2 hexes.
c. half the unit's current spotting range (rounded up)
e. 1 hex for fighters and tac bombers and 2 hexes for strategic bombers
f. 2 hexes for fighters and tac bombers and 3 hexes for strategic bombers

5. Oil consumption for air units flying recon missions could be:
a. Half the regular oil consumption, rounded down.
b. 1 oil for fighters and tac bombers and 2 oil for strat bombers
c. 1 oil for all air units

6. Air units who attack enemy units or hexes (like enemy cities) with get a recon report similar to the recon mission

7. If you fly a recon mission to an unspotted hex and discover a unit there then the air unit will NOT perform an air attack.
The reason is that the recon unit didn't carry bombs on the recon mission. You get a lower oil consumption since you just
fly recon.

8. Air / CV recon to sea hexes.
We could let air units fly recon missions to sea hexes with the following rules.
Spotting chance fighter / tac bomber:
a. Surface ships in hex: 50%
b. Hidden subs in hex: 10%

Spotting chance strat bomber:
a. Surface ships in hex: 50%
b. Hidden subs in hex: 25%

Spotting chance CV:
a. Surface ships in hex: 90%
b. Hidden subs in hex: 50%

Please suggest other values if you think that's better.

9. Air / CV recon to land hexes.

Spotting chance clear / desert / dune: 90%
Spotting chance rough / desert hills: 50%
Spotting chance swamp / forest / mountain: 25%
Spotting chance resource hex : 75%

Please suggest other values if you think that's better.

Spotting range is same as above (1 or 2 hexes). This way you can use e. g. strat bombers and CV's trying to locate hidden enemy subs in hexes
you believe they are in. The reason you get a chance to locate hidden subs is that subs had to surface from time to time to get air and they also travelled surfaced because it was faster and used less diesel than travelling dived. One reason you can't automatically spot surface ships is because the sea area was big and the spotting units sometimes missed the naval units.

By doing this we get an easy fix to e. g. the Germans retreating during the Russian winter offensive only to see the Russians exploit that they can move into unspotted hexes because the hidden German units don't exert ZOC until they're revealed. That makes it harder to retreat because the opponent can work on the flank of the new line and roll up the front line. Now the Russians will have to send air units closer to the front to spot the area and then the German units will exert ZOC normally.

Another benefit is that e. g. Lodz can no longer be taken from the rear by a German armor because you get +1 MP to the hex when it's unspotted and once you spot it then you see the Lodz unit that will get ZOC to prevent such a move. This means it will be a bit harder to take out Warsaw in one turn. Taking out Lodz with only units across the river is not so easy. You might need 2 tac bombers on the hex and that means no bombers against Warsaw.

Please vote on this suggested rule change. It shouldn't affect regular game play much because normally you see the initial units you will attack and attack them with your rear units. Those units will spot around itself after combat to reveal more units etc. Air spotting will be more useful in scenarios where you want to send your armor units as spearheads and want to check what's there before you send them. The +1 MP into unspotted hexes means that you can't get as far unless you recon first.

Another bonus is that you can now e. g. send an air recon mission from Egypt to the Tobruk area to spot the Axis unit presence there to get intelligence. Since the info is so valuable we need to make sure that we don't reveal too many hexes from air recon missions. A range of 1 hex or max 2 hexes should be enough. The oil consumption flying air recon is much lower.

Yes - 1. Unspotted hexes will cost +1MP to enter for land units (not naval units). Air units can't move to unspotted hexes (only attack).

Yes - 2. Air units can fly to unspotted enemy hexes and perform a recon mission (we need to create an icon for it similar to paradrop).

Yes - 3. The spot around hex command will be done on the target hex.

4a - 4. Spotting range can be:
a. a fixed number like a range of 1 hex from the target hex to not reveal too big areas. (that means target hex plus all adjacent hexes)

5b - 5. Oil consumption for air units flying recon missions could be:
b. 1 oil for fighters and tac bombers and 2 oil for strat bombers

Yes - 6. Air units who attack enemy units or hexes (like enemy cities) with get a recon report similar to the recon mission

Yes - 7. If you fly a recon mission to an unspotted hex and discover a unit there then the air unit will NOT perform an air attack.
The reason is that the recon unit didn't carry bombs on the recon mission. You get a lower oil consumption since you just
fly recon. And you're using less oil ... avoids and exploit.

Yes - 8. Air / CV recon to sea hexes.

Yes - 9. Air / CV recon to land hexes.

A question -- will enemy fighters be able to intercept air recon missions? If so, then I guess that you would either need to do recon withing fighter coverage or do recon with fighters themselves.

Also, after thinking about this I wonder if this is getting too complicated and if my original proposal limited to land units is might have the least impact on how the game currently works. My proposal is that A unit couldn't attack any unspotted enemy units before moving. It's move could reveal enemy units that other ground and air units could now attack.

If we follow your suggestion then we need to limit that to land units only and we might have to store a new value on each unit about being unspotted or now so we know after movement if the unit was unspotted at the start of the time the unit moved. That means we will invalidate all save games.

I will try to see if this can be done without invalidating save games, but I'm not sure.

I managed to find an area of the code that could prevent land units who moved adjacent to unspotted enemy units to attack. I sent some code fix to Ronnie and Paul for testing. If it works then we will go with that change instead of air recon.

Stauffenberg wrote:I managed to find an area of the code that could prevent land units who moved adjacent to unspotted enemy units to attack. I sent some code fix to Ronnie and Paul for testing. If it works then we will go with that change instead of air recon.

My initial testing shows that it works like a charm. Naval units are unaffected and can still attack like before. Great job! I recommend the change. Also, I will Monte Carlo the 1-turn Poland conquest with this change and post the results later today or tomorrow.

I really like this change as it closes the exploit you and Victor raised in the other thread. Also, it means that if you're on the offensive you better send units ahead to recon first.

This change means that even if you plan to attack a spotted unit but when you move adjacent to that unit you also uncover a previously unspotted unit you cannot attack. This change means that you'll need to move air or ground units to spot potential enemy hexes before moving and attacking.

If this is possible to change affecting only land units that would be great. Anyway, reconnaissance feature could be a thing to look into in the future.

Hi,
I agree with Ronnie's answers posted above.

I would like to add that air units selected can always attack resource hexes (i.e. cities, ports and other resource hexes) these are already known to be there and always able to perform air missions against. (i.e. strategic and airbase, port attack)

I concur with Ronnie...


Jay

We decided to abandon this rule and instead coded so a unit that moves adjacent to a previously hidden unit can not attack on the same turn. That would prevent the exploit of moving into seemingly empty hexes and then attack the unit adjacent to the destination hex. If you want to attack you need to send an air unit closer so it can spot for you.

Stauffenberg wrote:We decided to abandon this rule and instead coded so a unit that moves adjacent to a previously hidden unit can not attack on the same turn. That would prevent the exploit of moving into seemingly empty hexes and then attack the unit adjacent to the destination hex. If you want to attack you need to send an air unit closer so it can spot for you.

I think (hope) what I described in my last post in this thread reflects the functionality of this change (that was my intention.)