Slitherine

In our game today we had a situation I think needs to be clarified. My unit of Bandalier Reiter rode up to a supported arty unit and blasted away at the supporting infantry. The infantry failed its death roll and lost a base. Since it was a 6 base pike and shot unit, 2 shot stands were placed forward on line with the front of the gun so we would not forget where they were, and they had shot at my cavalry as well as the arty. Now when it came time to remove a base I said it should be the shot unit, since they were the only stands that could shoot at me and were physically off to the side. Since it was a matter of being even head on with the Reiters, Blathergut said it was his choice and took off a pike.

So question is who was right? Should it have been a shot stand since they were shooting, or is it owners choice for first death since all bases were equal distance?

For the record the pike and shot charged the Reiters while disrupted, and broke and ran, allowing me to capture the artillery in the pursuit

I thought only Med & Hvy art could shoot through the guns, so technically the exposed shot should have died for me.

Or:

The 3-wide, 2-deep reiters were lined up more or less directly with 2 bases of artillery/a file of shot and a file of pike "behind" and a file of shot not behind the artillery. For all purposes, is the pike & shot unit not considered at the front edge of the artillery? The 3 wide reiters shot at the 3-wide pike and shot. The other reiter bases not opposite my "exposed" file of shot would not have been able to shoot at it.

So 4 dice went in on the pike and shot BG, all equal distance from the bases. So, nearest obeying the proportional rule would be a shot or a pike therefore my choice.

I agree with scrumpy, that the shot was exposed so should have taken the first casualty.

But isn't the entire supporting BG "exposed"?

If not, then how did your carbines fire at the "exposed" base?

This makes no sense. The support BG is considered at the front edge of the artillery. Otherwise, I would have been out of range of most of the carbines. You shot 3 bases directly forward into 3 bases. How else could you have fired? The left-most carbine horse had to shoot at the base directly to front. Which was its choice of the artillery or the shot base supporting that artillery base. The centre carbine horse had to shoot at the base directly to front. Which was the other artillery base or the pike base supporting that artillery base. The right-most carbine horse had to shoot at the base directly to front. Which was the "exposed" shot base, which wasn't any more exposed than the other foot bases.

Am I wrong in this?

If I am, then you would have had to shoot two carbines + 1 rear carbine into the artillery. Yet you have a choice. Why? Not because the foot is hidden, but because it also is directly in front of you, the exact same distance as the artillery.

Or you could argue with 2 shot targets the most numerous is removed first so kiss a shot goodby

Either way they didn't stand long.

Perhaps we need an author to make a ruling if you are directly in front of an enemy target and they have to remove a base, as all bases are equal distance, which base you should remove first. Otherwise we will have to be satisfied with our opponents removing those pikes to keep the shooting dice up.

But the rules don't say 'most numerous' type is removed. Rules say "nearest base to shooters" which was all 3 foot bases. If anything, the centre pike base had more enemy close than either shot base.

keep making rolls like you did in that game and I won't mind if you keep taking all your pikes off for casualties

deadtorius wrote:Perhaps we need an author to make a ruling if you are directly in front of an enemy target and they have to remove a base, as all bases are equal distance, which base you should remove first. Otherwise we will have to be satisfied with our opponents removing those pikes to keep the shooting dice up.

If two bases are of equal priority to remove, the player losing a base chooses which to remove.

Blathergut wrote:Or:

The 3-wide, 2-deep reiters were lined up more or less directly with 2 bases of artillery/a file of shot and a file of pike "behind" and a file of shot not behind the artillery. For all purposes, is the pike & shot unit not considered at the front edge of the artillery? The 3 wide reiters shot at the 3-wide pike and shot. The other reiter bases not opposite my "exposed" file of shot would not have been able to shoot at it.

So 4 dice went in on the pike and shot BG, all equal distance from the bases. So, nearest obeying the proportional rule would be a shot or a pike therefore my choice.

Were you doing this right? I didn't think rear support meant the infantry were in the same place as the guns, just that they counted that way but only in close combat. I would have thought, based on target priority, the reiters would shoot all their dice at the artillery. The artillery would have their dice back at the reiters, and only the shot that weren't behind the artillery.

This situation has been discussed many times before on the rules thread. See:-

viewtopic.php?t=26580&highlight=artillery

The foot are assumed to be level with the front of the artillery so the firing unit (reiters) chooses whether to target the guns or the supporting foot unit. The foot elements behind the guns cannot shoot but if there is an overlapping element armed with distance weapons, then it can shoot.

In the original question as the reiters are shooting at the foot and the pike and the shot are equal priorities, being assumed to be at the same distance, then the P&S owner can choose whether to lose a pike or shot base.

Don

quackstheking wrote:This situation has been discussed many times before on the rules thread. See:-

viewtopic.php?t=26580&highlight=artillery

The foot are assumed to be level with the front of the artillery so the firing unit (reiters) chooses whether to target the guns or the supporting foot unit. The foot elements behind the guns cannot shoot but if there is an overlapping element armed with distance weapons, then it can shoot.

In the original question as the reiters are shooting at the foot and the pike and the shot are equal priorities, being assumed to be at the same distance, then the P&S owner can choose whether to lose a pike or shot base.

Don

Thanks for the pointer to the other thread. I would suggest it does merit an erratum/clarification because, while logical, I don't see anything in the rules as written that says the infantry is at the same position forward as the artillery in any situation other than in close combat. If there is a place in the rules where that is said, I'd be happy to go with that. So I'd like to request either a pointer to the text in the rules, or an erratum.

Hi Footslogger,

Page 126, "Artillery in Contact with Enemy", 2nd bullet point on rear support.

Don

footslogger wrote:I don't see anything in the rules as written that says the infantry is at the same position forward as the artillery in any situation other than in close combat. If there is a place in the rules where that is said, I'd be happy to go with that. So I'd like to request either a pointer to the text in the rules, or an erratum.

It is in the combat section, because it has to be somewhere, but it says:

 Artillery base depths vastly over-represent their actual historical depth. Hence a battle group in a position to give rear support to artillery is treated for all purposes as if its front edge was in the position of the front edge of the artillery, except that the files actually providing rear support cannot shoot.

Thanks.

I was reading that exact text but just missed it.

well it seems the Protestants finally won one

rbodleyscott wrote:

deadtorius wrote:Perhaps we need an author to make a ruling if you are directly in front of an enemy target and they have to remove a base, as all bases are equal distance, which base you should remove first. Otherwise we will have to be satisfied with our opponents removing those pikes to keep the shooting dice up.

If two bases are of equal priority to remove, the player losing a base chooses which to remove.

Except shooting from artillery and close combat which give solid examples for base lose, the "Other Shooting" base removal is for some reason much more vague and therefore has been open to gamesmanship. Other shooting follows the "proportional loss rule."The problem is in the line "After the first base loss..." Now some players say if you have two equidistant formations (lets say 2 pike and 4 shot) and one causes a base loss on the other, most gamers will say, I'll lose a base of Pike since I can then keep shooting at full strength. However, is this proportional? Losing a Pike creates a ration of 4:1 shooters to Pike, losing a Shot creates a ratio of 3:2, closer in proportion to the original unit strength. What I see though, is gamers saying the proportionality starts AFTER the hypothetical FIRST base loss. So they pick the Pike and then two shot if more bases are removed from non artillery shooting.

Maybe the authors should have left out the "after the first base loss" part and just stated the proportional rule as the general rule:

Bases are removed first by those priorities stated explicitly (artillery shooting, close combat, etc) and if none of these apply, in direct proportion to the constituent elements of a unit, starting with its most numerous troop type first.

But the rules don't say 'most numerous' type is removed. Rules say "nearest base to shooters" which was all 3 foot bases. If anything, the centre pike base had more enemy close than either shot base.

Actually, the rules add the proviso "consistent with the proportional loss rule". I've argued before that in this exact kind of situation the first loss must be a shot in order to complywiththe proportional loss rule. I was pretty much a lone voice crying in the widerness though.

Kevin

It was pointed out once before that you have to lose the closest base to the shooter (so likely a shot base), but in this case we were facing each other so it was Blatherguts choice of which base to lose.

deadtorius wrote:It was pointed out once before that you have to lose the closest base to the shooter (so likely a shot base), but in this case we were facing each other so it was Blatherguts choice of which base to lose.

Kevin is correct, the entire rule says the closest base which obeys proportional loss.