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France 44: suddenly your units become crap

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:41 pm
by Ryben
I´m playing the Normandy Scenario. Until this moment my experienced army was quite capable of beating the russians but, suddenly, in Normandy they seems to forget how to fight and got horrible, terrible losses against US and UK forces.

A 10 strenght FW190 against a just 1 P-47 does nothing! 88 AA fire innefective (barely 1 or 2 losses). Shermans wipe out Tigers and Panthers like they were made of tin. US Infantry blows up half of more experienced and entrenched infantry that fought since Poland. And when i strike back i get quite modest results.

I feel like in old PG, when the AI surely cheated and enemy units become unbeateable. I found myself surprised, in campaing i was doing quite well. Hell, i even captured Moscow twice. And in normandy everything falls apart... :shock: I don´t think i´ll survive this scenario.

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:46 pm
by Linai
bag ration of the west front
poorly designed scenario is poorly designed

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:12 am
by stecal
Seems like a few campaign battles are missing from the design. You jump from 1943 to summer 44 with little chance to upgrade your equipment. Meanwhile the Americans & Russians suddenly have everything new and shiny for summer of 1944. I think another interim battle needs to inserted in the campaign so the Germans can incrementally catch up.

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:17 am
by edahl1980
stecal wrote:Seems like a few campaign battles are missing from the design. You jump from 1943 to summer 44 with little chance to upgrade your equipment. Meanwhile the Americans & Russians suddenly have everything new and shiny for summer of 1944. I think another interim battle needs to inserted in the campaign so the Germans can incrementally catch up.
Kharkov 43 is missing, this is between Kursk and Stalingrad.

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:18 am
by starbird
It's a history lesson, you lost Britain you lost the war, and it's not your soldiers' fault. 8)

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:16 am
by Fritz
I guess your troops lack of experience.

Experienced Panther tanks can, if overstrengthed attack even entrenched M26 anti tanks sucsessfully in the US scenarios.

You can do Overlord with only 3 planes. The key to win this scenario is that you should have some anti aircraft guns. The Flack 36 is fine. Since you can use it against light hard targets also.
Your airplanes should only attack next to each other. So the get bonus. And only attack one seperated airplane at a time. Then retreat to the airfields and reinforce.

Your anti aircraft guns meanwhile weaken up the enemy airplanes while you are repairing or refuelling them.
At my experience the AI attacks artillery first and also it like to attack targets standing on bridges. You can use this to your advantage and put a "Flak" near those units.

Also at my opinion the anti aircraft vessels which dont need a track are pretty weak and useless.

Also a good tactic is to put your tanks and infantry to one big long line, so that almost no enemy unit can bypass your army. At my game only one unit sneaked by and occupied Paris. I countered it with one engineer which I had entrenched first in Paris and I buyed a fresh "Elefant" anti-tank and deployed it at Paris.

http://www.bilder-space.de/show_img.php ... e=original
I have done Overlord some time ago on Colonel. I started with the Italy campain. So i missed some scenarios!

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:32 am
by MickMannock
TigerIII wrote:
stecal wrote:Seems like a few campaign battles are missing from the design. You jump from 1943 to summer 44 with little chance to upgrade your equipment. Meanwhile the Americans & Russians suddenly have everything new and shiny for summer of 1944. I think another interim battle needs to inserted in the campaign so the Germans can incrementally catch up.
Kharkov 43 is missing, this is between Kursk and Stalingrad.
A Kharkov scenario is part of my map pack for the grand campaign, if you wish to download it.

viewtopic.php?t=26589&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:14 pm
by MarsRobert
I feel your pain man. Similar topics have come up frequently here. You know the drill: Maybe you're not wining a decisive victory in every battle (at normal difficulty), but you've been plugging away and steadily building and buffing up your forces as you go. Alas, you reach 1944 and the rather rude awakening of the Overlord/Bagration battles. You witness your magnificent army badly bloodied, if not totally annihilated. In fact it was especially unnerving for me as I came off a decisive win in Italy only to have my head handed to me on silver platter in Overlord. It's a bummer. :(

In all fairness though, when I played Overlord my buffed up tanks and planes were inflicting some losses on the Allies, and for a time it looked like I was going to survive. The trouble was that I didn't have enough tanks and (especially) planes. To counter the enormous Allied air power in Overlord, my gut feeling is that you need a minimum of four (and preferably five) veteran fighters to have any chance.

BTW, come to think of it, I was a bit disappointed that there was no Third Battle of Kharkov (Mainstein's fabled 'Backhand Blow') scenario. IMHO it was one of the most interesting battles of WW2. Paul Carel's narrative of the battle in his book 'Scorched Earth' was fantastic.

Anyway, I've been sort of taking a break from the game while I await the arrival of my new Falcon rig; arguably the best gaming PC in the world. 8) I'm definitely not going to let myself get frustrated and give up on the game though. It is way too cool and too much fun. :D

Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:52 pm
by Ryben
I think i´m going to take a rest until a patch is released with some adjustments and maybe a revamped campaign.

I was getting a lot of fun until Normandy (90% of my core force was annihilated, no hope to make anything in Ardennes scenario). Panzer Corps is terrific but needs a bit of polish here and there so i´ll wait a couple of months before trying the campaign again.

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:43 pm
by WabeWalker
MarsRobert wrote:I feel your pain man. Similar topics have come up frequently here. You know the drill: Maybe you're not wining a decisive victory in every battle (at normal difficulty), but you've been plugging away and steadily building and buffing up your forces as you go. Alas, you reach 1944 and the rather rude awakening of the Overlord/Bagration battles. You witness your magnificent army badly bloodied, if not totally annihilated. In fact it was especially unnerving for me as I came off a decisive win in Italy only to have my head handed to me on silver platter in Overlord. It's a bummer. :(

In all fairness though, when I played Overlord my buffed up tanks and planes were inflicting some losses on the Allies, and for a time it looked like I was going to survive. The trouble was that I didn't have enough tanks and (especially) planes. To counter the enormous Allied air power in Overlord, my gut feeling is that you need a minimum of four (and preferably five) veteran fighters to have any chance.

BTW, come to think of it, I was a bit disappointed that there was no Third Battle of Kharkov (Mainstein's fabled 'Backhand Blow') scenario. IMHO it was one of the most interesting battles of WW2. Paul Carel's narrative of the battle in his book 'Scorched Earth' was fantastic.

Anyway, I've been sort of taking a break from the game while I await the arrival of my new Falcon rig; arguably the best gaming PC in the world. 8) I'm definitely not going to let myself get frustrated and give up on the game though. It is way too cool and too much fun. :D
Hmm, this sounds realistic, though maybe not so much fun? LOL!

Arguably, the Allies won the war, or at least ended it when they did, because, by the end of the war, the Luftwaffe was all but destroyed. The Allies had total control of the skies.

Can I tell you an incredible story about my uncle, who died recently? During WW2, he was a Canadian pilot in the Royal Air Force, and mostly flew Spitfires and Typhoons. He got shot down twice: once in Cairo, and then again near the end of the war, in France, during The Battle of Falaise, which most people have never even heard about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falaise_pocket

When he bailed out of his Typhoon in France his parachute swung twice before he hit the ground with a thud. Unfortunately, he landed behind enemy lines (just like in the movies), and to add insult to injury he landed in an area through which an entire company of Germans was retreating. There were few places to hide so he jumped into a muddy ditch and tried to remain still, while also trying to determine if the retreating unit was an SS unit - he knew that if it was an SS unit, which at the time would have been made up of seasoned veterans, and fanatical members of The Hitler Youth, and if they captured him, then he would have been shot immediately.

Luckily, it wasn't an SS unit, because five minutes later, one of the panicked retreating infantrymen actually stepped on my uncle.

He was taken prisoner, along with another pilot, who was from Algiers. Immediately, a German officer, who was furious, stormed up to my uncle and the guy from Algiers, and shouted at them in a thick German accent: "My God, do you see that! Your fucking wingmen are shooting at our ambulances!" This, of course, would have been in violation of The Geneva code. "Explain yourselves, immediately!"

My uncle was lucky again, because he was an officer, and the German officers actually had a lot of respect for their Allied counterparts. My uncle explained that he had been ordered to shoot at ambulances approaching the front because apparently the ambulances were bringing ammunition to the front, then taking wounded soldiers away.

"I'm going to stop the next ambulance that comes down the road," said the officer. "If it's not transporting ammunition then I'm going to shoot you both."

My uncle, who had been following orders, had no way of knowing for certain if the ambulances coming forward really were transporting ammunition... and even if they were, perhaps, by chance, the next one wouldn't? He began to work at making peace with his Maker. His brother (the uncle I never knew) was shot down and killed just months earlier, and he assumed that in mere minutes he would be joining him in The Better Place.

Five minutes later an ambulance came towards them, and the German officer stepped forward with authority and stopped it. They all went around back and peered inside as the back doors were opened. My uncle said it was the most beautiful sight he had ever seen: ammunition, stacked from floor to ceiling. At this point, the guy from Algiers started to jeer at The Germans. My uncle claimed that if he'd had a pistol on him he would have shot the guy himself!

He was then taken POW and put on a train for a POW camp in Poland. The camp was liberated ten months later by the Russians. My uncle said that one morning the German guards were just gone. The prisoners were told to stay in the camp though, because The Russian soldiers were barbaric and would have shot them on sight. My uncle said it was fascinating seeing the army coming through because they saw only a smattering of soldiers, but that it went on for days. Apparently, from the air, you would have seen the entire Russian army stretched out for dozens and dozens of miles, but from the ground it wouldn't have been so obvious.

My uncle, because he was an officer, was one of the first to be taken from the camp. He said that in the first German town they arrived at he saw a German woman being raped by Russian soldiers. Basically, the Russian soldiers were conscripted, uneducated peasants, who were unfed by their own army, and were basically 'on the loose', though being guided.

Anyhow, you have to respect those guys who fought during that war. I tip my hat to them.

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:56 pm
by Ryben
WabeWalker wrote: Hmm, this sounds realistic, though maybe not so much fun? LOL!

Arguably, the Allies won the war, or at least ended it when they did, because, by the end of the war, the Luftwaffe was all but destroyed. The Allies had total control of the skies.
Of course. But since i came to Normandy map after capturing Moscow in 1943 i was expecting some kind of alternate situation in which the allies, because of the fall of the Soviet Union were weakened...not even stronger!

I think Normandy scenario could be different depending which branch the player took before. In any case i finally managed to get a marginal victory here and keeping a reasonable core force...it was just a question of playing a hide-and-seek game against the Allied tide until turn 27 :D

Btw, your uncle history is a great one! :D

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:42 pm
by Fimconte
I found Overlord quite easy actually, but that might have had something to do with the fact that I sunk a large part of the invasion fleet at sea.
I did have 6 Fighters (2-3 star overstrength) and 4 Strategic Bombers (5 star overstrength) to counter the Allied airforce with.

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:57 pm
by Longasc
Well the P47N Thunderbolt in US East Coast can hold its own against Me262, especially due to the radar towers that give it an extra bonus.

But comparing numbers in say the "Germany" scenario (start a hotseat match and compare) shows you that the Americans don't have SUPERIOR equipment. They just fight you on EQUAL terms. Very much like the Russians later on catch up with LOTS of VERY GOOD tanks for example. Their airforce never becomes that good though.

Some things I am not so happy about:
1.) The T-34 seem rather weak early on, maybe a necessity for scenario balance but I don't like it nevertheless. The T-34 doesn't live up to its WW2 glory in Panzer Corps.
2.) StuGs. They seem underrepresented and really ineffective compared to PG. They don't work well in anti-tank and anti-infantry mode and the StuG artillery/switch types feel also worse than other contemporary choices for the German player. I sometimes use the StuH42 but that was it.
3.) Late-war infantry with anti-fighter capability: They often inflict more losses on fighters and fighter bombers than those on he infantry unit.
(4. for some reason I got used how Stukas and fighter bombers work in Panzer Corps by now)

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:15 pm
by Linai
pzc unit balance is simple minded, there are 400 units and only 100 of them are balanced and the other 300 are junk
wh yis a p47 better than a p51?

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:00 pm
by kverdon
I too have lots of problems with the Overlord scenario.

1. Cherborg, Caen and St. Lo all fall by turn 2? In Monty's dreams perhaps. Why even have the invasion at all? They should just start the game in July 1944 if they wanted this effect.

2. US Troops hitting the beach in 76mm Shermans - They did not appear till Late July 44.

The scenario seems poorly put together. Overwhelming numbers I get but the performance of Allied units, even 75mm Sherman units against Panther G's and Tiger 2 units seems overblown.

I also agree that the campaign takes too big of a jump. From Decisive at Moskow 43 to Overlord June 44 is a bit much. Why not a campaign in Italy to build up your troops a bit more?

This IS a great game but the 1944 scenarions and the campaign from 1943 to 1944 seems to need some work.

Kevin

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:24 pm
by Ryben
Whoops! i didn´t noticed that Shermans 76 shouldn´t be there. You are right.

I have the feeling that they are already working in some extra scenarios to fulfil that gap and reworking on Normandy one.

In any case Normandy is a walk in the park compared to what lies ahead (i´m talking about Berlin. I´ve played 5 turns before realizing that is impossible to hold until turn 30. Yay! Ardennes, on the other hand, is very easy)

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:42 am
by Wings
Linai wrote:pzc unit balance is simple minded, there are 400 units and only 100 of them are balanced and the other 300 are junk
Sorry for digging up an old post, but is that really true guys?

Re: France 44: suddenly your units become crap

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:15 am
by Uhu
Take not an offense, but I have always to laugh on such topics. :)
People are never complainig about a map or units where/when they can win. Only if they loose.
Normandy represents how much chances the Germans had in that situation...
The bad news is, that either Ardennes or Lake Balaton will have at least the same level of difficulty.
The good news is, that if you are triing enough times and find the right solutions than you can do it. I even could do a DV in Rommel mode at Normandy (but only in the long campaign, in short campaign you really have no chance for that). But that was after hard work. So keep up the spirit and fight for glory! :)
It is always easier to say that the world is impossible as to look into the mirror and develop ourself further.
Look at the AAR topic in the forum. You can find good tipps too how to win a scenario.
Ryben wrote:I´m playing the Normandy Scenario. Until this moment my experienced army was quite capable of beating the russians but, suddenly, in Normandy they seems to forget how to fight and got horrible, terrible losses against US and UK forces.

A 10 strenght FW190 against a just 1 P-47 does nothing! 88 AA fire innefective (barely 1 or 2 losses). Shermans wipe out Tigers and Panthers like they were made of tin. US Infantry blows up half of more experienced and entrenched infantry that fought since Poland. And when i strike back i get quite modest results.

I feel like in old PG, when the AI surely cheated and enemy units become unbeateable. I found myself surprised, in campaing i was doing quite well. Hell, i even captured Moscow twice. And in normandy everything falls apart... :shock: I don´t think i´ll survive this scenario.

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:33 pm
by MartyWard
I have not had many problems with Normandy. I think the key is to let the Allies come to you. I rarely engage in ground combat for the first 4 turns of the scenario. It's a pretty long scenario and you can take your time. Work on killing fighters in the first few turns then the bombers then set up a defense to blunt the allies forces. After a few turns of defending you can begin a methodicaly counter attack.

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:55 pm
by bebro
Played it only once in a campaign and on colonel then, but there I found it rather easy as well.

I lost one experienced fighter, and IIRC one or two ground units, but not much more. I had all my tac bombers upgraded to either Me410 or FW190 fighter bombers that can do air attacks, so concentrated my fighters to take out the allied fighter cover, and used those Me410s/FW190Gs to attack bombers. I had two 8,8 flaks as well, but they didn't get much to do against enemy planes since the allies did most of their air attacks elsewhere

On the ground I found Panthers, Jagdpanthers and Tigers, mostly at str 13 did well, I just needed to be careful that they don't get overwhelmed somewhere.

The Brit push towards Paris was rather weak and stopped by a Tiger II with some minor inf/arty assistance. Most allied attacks towards the center and east were rather amateurish, the only really critical part was the (mostly US led) drive southwards.