Slitherine

I´ve encountered a KV-2 unit in the Kursk scenario. To my surprise it attacked one of my experienced PanzerIVG units dealing great losses. Still wondering how that´s possible.

The KV-2 was a slumbering beast, underpowered and armed with a 152mm Howitzer, which was excellent against bunkers (this is what it was built for) but wasn´t a AT weapon. The huge turret was painfully slow traversing and could only rotate in plain terrain. So, esentially, was a mobile pillbox and totally useless in tank combat.

I think it should be classed as mobile artillery (like a Stug) instead being a tank unit.

I think thats a good suggestion. KV-2 is one tank that the soviets dropped pretty quickly but its performance as a tank killer in Panzer Corps means it can almost go head to head with a Tiger. I liked the way it was modelled in PG where although heavily armoured, it had low initiative and that way the Panzers could get the jump on it. Classing it as an assault gun might be a good solution. I think in Panzer Corps KV-2 is easily the worlds best tank killer in 41/42 which exagerates its abilities somewhat.

While the IVG was a much improved version, the versions up to IVF where just no match for the KV-2.

I concur that the KV-2 had many deficiencies, but to say that it was useless in tank combat is simply not true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kliment_Voroshilov_tank

On the contrary the german tanks and AT weapons were in the beginning of very limited usefulness against such a tank!
There are reports that those tanks, when out of ammo, literally drove over german armored units.
Stopped only by shots to the tracks and following artillery/airstrikes on the immobilized KVs (or charges directly attached to them by infantry or the 88 ).

One of those KV-2 stopped a sizeable part of the 6th Panzer Division for an entire day, until it ran out of ammo...

one of those KV-2 stopped a sizeable part of the 6th Panzer Division for an entire day, until it ran out of ammo... Exclamation

You mean the tank battle near Rasanaei - two KV-2 please of the 11th soviet army !! the 11th german tank rgt was only equipped with Pz 35(t) !

H.Balck

The image is hopefully going to be addressed in the first patch, and stat rebalance is an ongoing task. The KV-2 is quite good, but it's ammo reserve is terrible and close defense is awful. Exploit those weaknesses for best results.

I have also noticed in the Kursk campaign that what I had understood were Russian tanks of less than stellar performance in armoured combat are very very tough in battle with Tigers, Panthers, PZIV, also. This surprised me since the Russians in actuality dropped these AFV from production and increased others like the T34, ISU Self Propelled 85, 100 series, etc. Conversely the T34's seem to not fare so well against the experienced German crews in Tigers, Panthers, PZIV, sometimes even StuG's. Some of my strong experienced Tiger I and Panther D units can blow away a unit of T34's easily tank for tank. The lumbering Ferdinand is invincible almost against other armor it seems.

In the Moscow 43 Campaign the Tiger I's and Panther A's just seem to blow out any Russian Tank unit tank for tank or especially when they are overmatched in tanks per unit. In Moscow 43, you concentrate more on driving like hell to the next town, blowing everything up you can on the way. There can be no slowdowns to do battle, just blow them up along the way and keep moving. Kursk is more plodding and the fighting is harder I think.

It would be interesting and amusing to see German tanks captured and used by the Russians and some of the Lend Lease Shermans that formed entire Tank Battalions all the way to Berlin. Conversely the same with Russian T34's used by the Germans. They ALWAYS PAINTED BIG CROSSES ON THESE TANKS.

I'm not sure why KV-2 gets a defense rating of 22 when T-34 only gets 11. KV-2's armour was not twice as thick and it had absolutely no slope. It's high flat profile offered a great target that was difficult to conceal and it could barely move to defend itself unless on hard flat ground. Its, large calibre, low velocity artillery piece would have been more inaccurate, over range than other tank weapons of the time and its rate of fire abysmal. Add to this a turret that couldn't even rotate if placed on an angle and you can see it would have had real problems trying to hit moving targets. In the game, its hard attack ratings of 15 and initiative of 9 are only surpassed by the genuine tank killers Tiger and Panther in 1943 when in reality KV-2 was long dead by then, dumped by the Russians with only 300 units built.
I hope it gets looked at in the next patch.

Maybe in the next pacth they will introduce the KV-85!

Replace the KV-5 with it. I don't think there were a lot of KV-5s built but they have been included in the Soviet list, although they can't be purchased.

Locarnus wrote:There are reports that those tanks, when out of ammo, literally drove over german armored units.

I have to admit that KV tanks were very good when used by somewhat intelligent crew when in defense (heavy tanks are born for this role), but "driving over" is probably yet another propaganda myth.
Source, or it did not happen.
It was too slow to catch anything, especially in hard terrain.

DukeOfLight wrote:Maybe in the next pacth they will introduce the KV-85!

I've been asking for this for months. Hopefully it'll be ready with the first batch of new units.

HBalck wrote:

one of those KV-2 stopped a sizeable part of the 6th Panzer Division for an entire day, until it ran out of ammo... Exclamation

You mean the tank battle near Rasanaei - two KV-2 please of the 11th soviet army !! the 11th german tank rgt was only equipped with Pz 35(t) !

H.Balck

He is talking about Raseiniai(I assume that's what you meant).
Here's a direct quote from the article:
"...a single Kv-2 heavy tank, at a crossroads in front of Raseiniai, managed to cut off elements of the 6th Panzer Division which had established bridgeheads on the Dubysa. It stalled the Division's advance for a full day while being attacked by a variety of antitank weapons, until it finally ran out of ammunition..."

So much for the "slumbering, under-powered beast". KV in the early years of the war was practically invulnerable to German weapons, causing Germans in desperation to re-purpose the AA 8.8cm Guns as the only effective threat to KV(aside from concentrated artillery barrage/Luftwaffe strike).

Pz IV's early configurations posed no significant threat to KV1/2, so the game is largely correct in it's presentation. 155mm did not need to penetrate anything, explosion caused by such round is enough to wreck any early Wehrmacht armour.
Having said that, suggestion to make it a heavy artillery piece has merit.


In fact, both Tiger and Panther were not just abstract "better" tanks, but designed as direct responses to the KV and T-34.

Sure, if forced to confront the KV-2 head on in favourable terrain, with no opportunities to flank, it was more than a handful in 1941, But i don't think this "famous" often cited encounter is typical of all engagements.
Yes the 152mm would wreck any tank it hit but first you have to turn the turret, aim the gun, etc. With such a huge gun in such a heavy turret range finding and rate of fire is going to a be real problem. KV-2 probably couldn't even traverse in time to hit a moving target and then you have to repeat the whole process. KV-1 would not have these troubles and is modelled quite well... KV-2 is not.

Anyway, the original poster mentioned the IVG panzer at Kursk, not the early 1941 battles. By this time the PzIV definitely had the penetrating power to deal with the KV-2. The long barreled 75mm gun would have been easier to aim and its ROF would have doubled the Russian gun. Its shot would have travelled in a much flatter trajectory to target making it a far more accurate anti tank weapon. The problem here is that in the game, KV-2 is superior to IVG and really belts all the panzers, until the appearance of the Tiger tank and even these struggle to deal with it. Yes it was one tough tank in 42/43 but theres no evidence to suggest it was so effective in tank vs tank combat against these later models.

It was essentially an experimental variant. Quickly worked up and built during the winter war to deal with finnish bunkers. The project was abandoned just as quickly.

Up north, the 6-Panzer-Division under Panzer-Gruppe 4 had encountered Russian heavy tanks. As related in the war diary of Panzer-Regiment 11 on 25 June 1941 (cited from T. Jentz «Panzertruppen»):

«During the morning, the II.Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 11 together with Kampfgruppe von Seckendorff advanced along the right-hand march route. Throughout the day both units fought off repeated attacks from the Russian 2nd Armored Division. Unfortunately, the Russian 52 ton heavy tanks showed that it was almost insensitive to hits from the 10.5-cm. Several hits from a 15-cm gun were ineffective and bounced off. However, continuous attacks by several Pz Kpfw lV managed to knock out a large number of tanks throughout the day, which allowed our own attack to again drive forward to about three kilometers west of Dubysa.

The bridgehead of Kampfgruppe Raus was held. During the afternoon, as a reserve, a reinforced company and the headquarters of Panzer-Abteilung 65 were pulled back along the left attack route to the crossroads northeast of Rossienie. In the meantime a Russian heavy tank had blocked the communications route to Kampfgruppe Raus, so that contact with Kampfgruppe Raus was broken for the entire afternoon and during the night. An 8.8-cm Flak battery was sent by the commander to fight this tank. It was just as unsuccessful as a 10.5-cm battery whose fire was directed by a forward observer. In addition, an attempt by a Pioneer assault troop using balled explosives failed. It was impossible to get close to the tank because of heavy machine gun fire»

The most of KV-2 tanks were lost because of breakdowns. For example, 41st Tank Division lost 22 KV-2 tanks of 33 tanks total. The only 5 tanks were destroyed by the enemy, other 17 tanks were abandoned because of breakdowns or run out of fuel.

Sounds like KV-2 should be toned down, while T-34 slightly strengthened. Still, during Kursk time it should not be viable anymore.

That's not what I hear when I hear that story.

What I hear is that PC needs an "attrition" flag enabling unreliable units to automatically degrade say 1 point of strength each turn (that you use the unit actively: moving and/or making an attack).

This should encourage more realistic usage:
- the unit being bypassed for other units later in the war, even though they might not be significantly stronger
- when it does see usage, the player (human/AI) is encouraged to use it sparingly and/or defensively

Molve wrote: What I hear is that PC needs an "attrition" flag enabling unreliable units to automatically degrade say 1 point of strength each turn (that you use the unit actively: moving and/or making an attack).

This should encourage more realistic usage:
- the unit being bypassed for other units later in the war, even though they might not be significantly stronger
- when it does see usage, the player (human/AI) is encouraged to use it sparingly and/or defensively

Actually thats an excellant idea.

if by sparingly you mean not at all, yea
what a terrible idea you should be ashamaed of yourself

From what I've read about Kursk the T34 was the most prevelant Russian tank in the battle and that there were also a number of Sherman and Grant's. This is not what you find in the scenarion. In fact there were ~4,000 shermans sent to the USSR but they aren't even in the force pool.

Molve wrote:That's not what I hear when I hear that story.

What I hear is that PC needs an "attrition" flag enabling unreliable units to automatically degrade say 1 point of strength each turn (that you use the unit actively: moving and/or making an attack).

This should encourage more realistic usage:
- the unit being bypassed for other units later in the war, even though they might not be significantly stronger
- when it does see usage, the player (human/AI) is encouraged to use it sparingly and/or defensively

The idea has one problem: Russian player will be using 30-50% of time for reinforcing weakened units.

While historically accurate, the game may not be fun to play at all .