Slitherine

What the title says..

It's not so much a problem for me that the trucks and trains are weak cause they usually operate behind the actual front. But the real disaster is the amphibious ships and the planes.
Anyone who has played the sea lion campaign knows what I'm talking about. Before you get to land you've usually already lost about 10 of your troops (or even more) to enemy naval or air fire (and in the norway campaign there's that pesky fortress..).

I've played PG2 for a long time and there the ships only took 1 or max 2 damage when targeted. In PC they take like 8 from pretty much any enemy fire, whether it's destroyers, bombers, artillery or infantry on the shores. Against a somewhat decent fleet that's gonna get you into a whole lot of trouble.
And postponing the invasion isn't really an option either with such a strict time schedule

The paratroopers are equally hard to use. Even if you protect them with a fighter the enemy aircraft still do 7 or 8 damage everytime they attack the plane these brave fighters are in. And a 2 or 3 HP paratroop stranded in enemy territory isn't likely to last another turn to reinforce.
Basically the fighters are doing a pretty damn poor job in protecting weaker air units. Even the (protected) bombers are easy targets when attacked.

I'm also not really sure how to use my paratroopers. They are too weak to capture any half decent defended cities and airfields are pretty useless (you can't really fly in more troops by air because they will have to fly in the same 'coffins' as their predecessors).


So yeah, I'm a bit at odds here.

It would be nice to get more defensive support from fighters. And with regards to the ships. Maybe the current damage can be reserved for ships that are adjacent to the shore (as signifying embarking/disembarking troops), while ships further off shore are considered as large transportation ships (and thus made less vulnerable). The ports could be places for these large vessels to safely unload their troops without turning into weak amphibious vessels.

What I do with Sea Lion is retreat all the transports to the coast of France and focus on the Royal Navy and RAF. To do that I buy fighters, of course, and also the Ju-88 (the mean ship busters). Together they can take out the ships and clear the skies and *then* bring the transports across. It's a bit of a juggling act because you can't afford to waste too much time doing that but it has had some success for me - a Victory but not enough to get to attack the US. With more tries I'm sure I'll get there. Sea Lion is tough but there are ways to win; obviously as many here talk of their exploits on the US mainland. Good luck.

Hehe thanks

I can pull off a regular victory in sea lion too. I tend to destroy the ships off the shore of southern Kent and move my transports there to land, while moving my other battleships north and west to keep the English navy occupied. It works for a regular victory, but not for a decisive one as I can't place all of my troops in the center deployment place. And with all my troops in Kent it's gonna take a while before the victory hexes in the west are captured.

then use your paras in the west!

remember, what the enemy can not see, he can not attack
thats true for transport ships as well as for your paras

My paras didnt lose a single strength when I tried the scenario sealion 42

it is a bit of luck in it, but there are some basic rules for para use, eg

1. enemy has infantry in cities, they have visual range 2
2. enemy has more units in the middle of the map, than on the edges
3. enemy units defend victory hexes in the direction of your likely assault

So combine them and fly in your paras at the edges of the map, so that they stop well between city hexes.
For sealion 42 that doesnt work for the northeast, because the enemy expects your thrust to come from there towards the northeastern city
but it works quite well for the west...

How "early" SeaLion worked for me (1939 campaign, medium difficulty):


- Hold back the landing ships (all for one turn, some units closer to the English battle ships for another turn)

- Don't land in the north east - concentrate on a massive attack on London (and landing operations along the middle and eastern parts of the south coast) and prepare the cities in the northeast by naval and air attack so you can "rush" into them with very few units after capturing London. Try to use the range of the heavy ships as often as possible to support the offensive on the ground

- Hold back the air troopers until the war in the air over the channel is mainly over and then take the airport in the west. Your planes don't need a base in England in the beginning because the dogfight arises around the ships.

Doing so i didn't loose a single unit (only two heavily damaged) during the whole landing operation. Even with the delays in the beginning a decisive victory was achieved in the first attempt.

Actually I'm surprised to hear that fighter escort is so ineffective for you. What fighters exactly are escorting and attacking?

@Rhunesque, here is a mockup of what I do and also check out Horseman's AAR (my mockup has Fog of War turned off so you can see the enemy layout). He is currently on Sealion and uses much the same strategy as me. You need to take out the enemy Heavy Cruiser on the coast and the three enemy planes within range on the first turn. This will allow your transports better chance for survival. I use 3 fighters on the Spitfire (or 2 plus a fighter bomber), 2 on the Hurricane and 1 fighter plus 1 fighter bomber on the British tactical bomber. Use your best Ju88 on the Heavy Cruiser with the BB and Lt. Cruiser from the south.

Horeseman's AAR: http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... c&start=60

I'm in the middle of the early sealion (Turn 5 I think) on colonel and I done similar to the above with a few changes.

Blockade into the coast the ships in the NE, then flew the planes and transport ships up the very edge of the map.

I flew the aux paras west and stopped just out of range of the SW radar before leapfrogging it inland. If you transport planes and ships can't be seen the enemy won't attack usually. I also embarked 1 pionere at the very west port and sailed him NW to take the city and then storm the radar from behind.

I hit the west battleship and sub with a JU88/87 combo with a fighter in between. I actually ignore the other ship and it stomped a destroyer but then retreated to portsmouth and I pinned it in with subs and killed it in turn 3 or 4. Having 6 JU88's including the 2 Aux makes a huge dent in the british shipping. The fact that the UK seems to hate subs and my subs were evading left right and centre certainly helped somewhat though.

I finished SeaLion 40 in turn 12 on Default Difficulty level....so I guess it is not too hard .

Btw. you do not get to USA after Sealion 40....you always go to russia / Greece first

Iscaran wrote:I finished SeaLion 40 in turn 12 on Default Difficulty level....so I guess it is not too hard .

Btw. you do not get to USA after Sealion 40....you always go to russia / Greece first

Hopefully I'll be finishing on turn 12 too...though there is an outside chance I'll finsish at turn 11

@Agentx - thats the 2nd time I've seen you reference my AAR, I'm gonna have to start paying advertising fees if you keep doing it

Rudankort wrote:Actually I'm surprised to hear that fighter escort is so ineffective for you. What fighters exactly are escorting and attacking?

Dear Rudankort, I'm a little short on time (almost bedtime), but I did a quick try on the Sea Lion scenario.

I send 1 fighter/1 bomber up Kent and 1 fighter/1para up west.
Enemy aircraft took the bait :

-----------------------------
Kent (bomber-case):
Bf 109E fighter protecting Ju 87B bomber.
Attacked by 1 enemy fighter, a Spitfire Mk.I

My planes deal 2 damage (1 each). Enemy spitfire deals 5 dmg to my bomber.


the West (para-case):
Bf 109F fighter protecting Fallschirm-unit.
Attacked by 2 enemy fighters, 1 Spitfire Mk.I + 1 Hurricane I

Spitfire is first to attack:
My fighter deals 2 damage, Paratrooper 0 of course. Enemy spitfire deals 4 damage to Para-unit.

Hurricane is second to attack:
Fighter no longer assists Paratrooper. Hurricane now deals the remaining 6 dmg to the Para-unit, unit is destroyed.

--------------------

So yeah. -1 and -2 my own fighters deal to the enemy fighters, while my most important units (bomber and para) take 4 dmg on the first hit and a fatal damage on the second (when it is no longer protected).
Without fighters the units would probably take 6-8 damage, which is still 2 hits to take it out. The fighter escort therefore doesn't really help me out

Ok, so the important question:

Is fighter escorts intentionally (next to) useless, or is this on the list of bugs to be fixed?

No fighters work just fine as Escorts

yup, works fine for me as well.....only they can defend bombers or ground units once so the next attack is not intercepted with the same fighter

Razz1 wrote:No fighters work just fine as Escorts

Care to expand on that (in view of the thread's complaints)?

Specifically, do you by "work just fine" mean "save a point or two of strength" even though two attacks still finish off the escorted unit, meaning that every unit still ends up needing to fend for itself in practice?

Or is there something we have missed? If so, please explain? Sorry for my blunt tone, but a so very terse reply like yours only raises more questions than it gives answers.

I'll try to explain.

there's no defense against artillery fire (artillery, bunkers or whatever) and they inflict heavy casualties on your units (but try to avoid transports in the front lines).

regarding air attacks - much depends on your fighters ability to protect - that means his power against enemy's fighters, his experience.....
if u have one paratrooper plane and one fighter in an adjacent hex, then your fighter will attack enemy's fighter and inflict some damage (depends on the power and XP of your fighter), but the enemy fighter will still attack paratrooper plane if enough damage isn't inflicted to him (if he doesn't break his attack). if another enemy fighter attacks that same paratrooper plane, then it will not be intercepted by your fighter because fighter can intercept (protect) only once per turn. the same works for ground units.

in the beginning, your fighter's are weak and can't protect very good. but later (and with more powerful models of your fighters), you can do serious damage to enemy's fighters. for example - USA west coast - my fighters inflicted 8-10 damage to enemy's fighters which attacked my bombers. they broke their attack because they took massive damage from my fighters.

SardaukarCRO wrote:I'll try to explain.
in the beginning, your fighter's are weak and can't protect very good. but later (and with more powerful models of your fighters), you can do serious damage to enemy's fighters. for example - USA west coast - my fighters inflicted 8-10 damage to enemy's fighters which attacked my bombers. they broke their attack because they took massive damage from my fighters.

Agreed.

It seems indeed a problem early on in the war. I had better scores in the US scenarios as well than I had in the Sea Lion campaign .

And last but not least... if a paratroop plane is considered important give it more escort or try to hide it from enemy, taking it more than two hexes away from city/airports/radars etc. Obviously my paratroops lands a little far away from their objective but they land ! If I found some faults in my strategy I change my strategy, I don't try to change the balance of the game.

AgentX wrote:@Rhunesque, here is a mockup of what I do and also check out Horseman's AAR (my mockup has Fog of War turned off so you can see the enemy layout). He is currently on Sealion and uses much the same strategy as me. You need to take out the enemy Heavy Cruiser on the coast and the three enemy planes within range on the first turn. This will allow your transports better chance for survival. I use 3 fighters on the Spitfire (or 2 plus a fighter bomber), 2 on the Hurricane and 1 fighter plus 1 fighter bomber on the British tactical bomber. Use your best Ju88 on the Heavy Cruiser with the BB and Lt. Cruiser from the south.

Using your advice I obtained a DV victory with spare Turns left, but on Lieutenant difficulty. Great tactic for the most important Turns of the scenario.

Rhunesque wrote:...Basically the fighters are doing a pretty damn poor job in protecting weaker air units. Even the (protected) bombers are easy targets when attacked...

Rhunesque wrote:...So yeah. -1 and -2 my own fighters deal to the enemy fighters...

I can confirm that my fighters were dealing very low damage to the English air force. Even though I had 3 fighters at overstrength (1x 12, 2x 11) along with a newly aquired one, 1 Fighter Bomber (12 strength) converted from the Stuka, and the 2 auxiliary BFs, I had some rough time destroying the Spitfires and Hurricanes.
To give an example, 4 BFs surrounded an English plane. One BF completely missed, the others inflicted 1 or 2 damage, while the Spitfire/Hurricane inflicted 1 damage to each BF while defending.

DreadWing wrote:I can confirm that my fighters were dealing very low damage to the English air force. Even though I had 3 fighters at overstrength (1x 12, 2x 11) along with a newly aquired one, 1 Fighter Bomber (12 strength) converted from the Stuka, and the 2 auxiliary BFs, I had some rough time destroying the Spitfires and Hurricanes.
To give an example, 4 BFs surrounded an English plane. One BF completely missed, the others inflicted 1 or 2 damage, while the Spitfire/Hurricane inflicted 1 damage to each BF while defending.

true. one English plane is a real pain in the ass. it took 5 of my fighters to finish him off - barely!!