Slitherine

How are the rules going to deal with fanatical troop types? From what I have read it seems that you should be able to guide them in the right direction, but then shock/impact troops need to take a CMT so as not to charge if necessary. However, this will be easier, I think, for better troops. What if these better troops are the sort that liked suicidal charges? That's if any such troops really existed and did that sort of thing, or have I been miss informed by the rules that I have so far played. For example; Samurai, Berserks, Gaesati, Naked Celts, Dare to Die Volunteers.

philqw78 wrote:How are the rules going to deal with fanatical troop types? From what I have read it seems that you should be able to guide them in the right direction, but then shock/impact troops need to take a CMT so as not to charge if necessary. However, this will be easier, I think, for better troops. What if these better troops are the sort that liked suicidal charges? That's if any such troops really existed and did that sort of thing, or have I been miss informed by the rules that I have so far played. For example; Samurai, Berserks, Gaesati, Naked Celts, Dare to Die Volunteers.

Wouldn't they come under Warband, who get an Impact attack?

Incidentally, two kind of troops that contact each other that both have Impact Bonus, (e.g Warband & Legionarries) do they both get plusses to hit the other?


Cheers,
Jer

Warband is a DBM troop type. Berserks, Wb in DBM, would be something like Unprotected Medium Foot, possibly Heavy Weapons, big choppers. Would they be elite, so they can re-roll 1's and 2's, or just re-roll 1's and 2's at first contact for shock effect?

philqw78 wrote:Warband is a DBM troop type. Berserks, Wb in DBM, would be something like Unprotected Medium Foot, possibly Heavy Weapons, big choppers. Would they be elite, so they can re-roll 1's and 2's, or just re-roll 1's and 2's at first contact for shock effect?

Why would Beserks be only Medium Foot? Doubtful that they would count as Elite, since Elite troops tend to stick around & have a reputation to maintain. The only Elite Beserk is the one on the narow footbridge at Stamford Bridge who held up the Saxons for some considerable time! (At least until some sneaky Saxon floated down the river in a barrel & stuck a spear from underneath the bridge )
Surely they would come under Shock Foot troops?


Cheers,
Jer

Why would Beserks be only Medium Foot

Unarmoured loose formation foot.

stick around & have a reputation to maintain.

They were pretty much only reputation or actually were lunatic

only Elite Beserk is the one on the narow footbridge

I think that was a Huscarl

The way AoW deals with troops who want to get stuck in is using the shock troops mechanism.

Any troops who have certain impact POA's have to test to not charge under certain circumstances. The POA's in question are Lancers, Impact foot, Pike and Offensive spear.

I imagine that Berzerkers will be Impact foot and possibly skilled swordsmen. I am pretty sure they will be elite (i.e. re roll 1's and 2's). If they are heavy weapon armed they will not be shock troops

When a charge hits the POA's of either side are netted out so Roman Impact foot against Gallic Impact foot is an even fight. Once the impact round is over then melee POA's take over and the better armour and swordsmanship of the Romans should quickly start to hurt the Gauls. If the Gauls lose the impact they are in trouble.

If they are heavy weapon armed they will not be shock troops

So does this mean that troops with Heavy Weapons cannot be shock troops? What about Early Varangian Guard, Huscarls, Russ Druzhina, Dacian Falxmen?
Though this does lead away from my original Q.

If I was writing the Viking list (which I am not) I would have Berzerks as BG's of 2 bases of elite, medium foot, unprotected , impact foot, swordsmen. With them being small BG's they would not be that good at standing around as once they lose a base the BG will be lost (any BG reduced to one base is lost).

The reason for the elite is that you don't often hear of them running away and they fought ferociously. Essentially you would have to kill them to beat them which sounds right to me.

You don't actually ever hear of them fighting in pitched battles at all AFAIK!

stalins_organ wrote:You don't actually ever hear of them fighting in pitched battles at all AFAIK!

Off the top of my head, Stamford Bridge is the only occasion to spring to mind of a Berseker in action - the bridge example I gave earlier.
Considering he is supposed to have lasted for several combats on his tod, that pretty much covers the Elite Status


Cheers,
Jer

I don't think that single warrior was a berserker at all - "just" a skilled fighter - lack of armour was common for het Vikings that day - they'd all taken it off after their march!

whitehorses wrote:

stalins_organ wrote:You don't actually ever hear of them fighting in pitched battles at all AFAIK!

Off the top of my head, Stamford Bridge is the only occasion to spring to mind of a Berseker in action - the bridge example I gave earlier.
Considering he is supposed to have lasted for several combats on his tod, that pretty much covers the Elite Status


Cheers,
Jer

Erik the Red, a noted beserker was leader of the Jomsvikings in several battles.

Of course, one nutter does not a BG make

I feel it should be noted that there is very little evidence for any but a handful of berserks. In general they formed part of the retinue of the great Viking leaders.

It would be extremely unlikely for an army to contain enough to make up a base/element/stand so they should not even be in the list at all. They are one of the great myths of wargaming.

regards
Paul

Hi!

I owuld like to know the origin of the word, beserker, in English. In Swedish bes?¶k (pronounced like beserk) means to visit and a bes?¶kare is a visitor. So in Norse, it merely means the Viking is paying a visit.

Larry Irons

As a general rule point I would add:

Fanatics gets used as a catch all phrase for lots of different things:

Religious fervour and a willingness to die
Incredible morale
Great weapon skill
Highly elite status
Dedication to a cause

These tend to be very different things so nhat we have tried to do is ignore the word fanatic and instead represent the true nature of different troops so:

Fanatics who tended to go forward and throw themselves into combat will be shock troops and hard to stop once they have a decent target in range

Fanatics who had great quality will be superior and elite and reflected this way - Samurai are likely to be a mix of these and Varangians too

categorisations will reflect the tactical fighting doctrine of the type...so fanatical chargers will tend to be Impact Foot, exceptional swordsmen will be reflected this way

Fanatics who fought shoulder to should will be HF and those who fought in loose formations that might be more vulnerable to a mounted charge in the open will be MF

Religious fanatics might get a bonus through having religious artifacts nearby (shrine etc) - note this one stiull under discussion

Thus fanatics get handled as the actual fanatic was, rather than as a single concept....

hope that helps

Si

Re: Origin. IIRC Sark is old English for shirt as in Cutty Sark - Short Shirt - name of a famous ship. Therefore Bare Sark - Bare chested - no shirt. (Possibly)

phil

larryirons wrote:Hi!

I owuld like to know the origin of the word, beserker, in English. In Swedish bes?¶k (pronounced like beserk) means to visit and a bes?¶kare is a visitor. So in Norse, it merely means the Viking is paying a visit.

Larry Irons

It comes from Old Norse berr (English bare) and serkr (English shirt or armour), so 'bare-shirted', or 'armourless'.

philqw78 wrote:Re: Origin. IIRC Sark is old English for shirt as in Cutty Sark - Short Shirt - name of a famous ship. Therefore Bare Sark - Bare chested - no shirt. (Possibly)

phil

Exactly, ON serkr become OE sark (often written serc).

plewis66 wrote:

philqw78 wrote:Re: Origin. IIRC Sark is old English for shirt as in Cutty Sark - Short Shirt - name of a famous ship. Therefore Bare Sark - Bare chested - no shirt. (Possibly)

phil

Exactly, ON serkr become OE sark (often written serc).

Actually, checking with www.etymonline.com suggests I was mistaken about berr (bare), and that it may instead be derived from ber (bear), and mean 'bearskin-shirted', and Wikipedia agrees.