Slitherine

Only post to this thread if you are suggusting content for army list notes

Regards
JDM

I wouldn't mind offering a bit of input into the Later Hindu and Muslim Indian lists if possible. How do I go about that?

Regards

AC

Email Richard - or me and I'll pass it on

In an effort to help JD out here is an example of the kind of thing I think he is looking for. These are the historical notes I put together for the Slave Revolt list.

In 73 BC Spartacus was one of a group of 70 gladiators who broke out of the school of Lentulus Batiatus in Capua. The rebels initially used kitchen implements to break out but obtained several carts of gladiatorial equipment during their escape. The escaped slaves then defeated a small force sent to recapture them taking their arms and armour to add to their arsenal.

Over the next few weeks the rebels moved to a more defensible position on the slopes of mount Vesuvius and many more escaped slaves swelled their ranks. A larger Roman militia force under the leadership of Gaius Claudius Glaber besieged the slaves but by using vines and ladders some of the slave force made it??™s way down the impassable slopes and attacked the Roman camp from the rear. The resulting battle saw the Romans comprehensively defeated and yet more arms and armour were added to the slaves inventory.

With these victories the army of Spartacus continued to grow and was able to defeat yet another Roman force under the leadership of praetor Publius Varinius. By the end of 73 BC the total size of the slave army was 70,000 men women and children and it had proven capable of defeating Roman armies.

In 72 BC the slaves moved North and it seems that their still growing force split into at least two. The smaller part of the slave army lead by Crixus was caught and defeated by a regular Roman army under Lucius Gellius Publicola. Spartacus was however by now rather too near Rome for the comfort of the senate. Several more hastily raised legions were sent to bar Spartacus??™ route to Rome while Gellius moved to trap the slave army. Spartacus then split his army, a small force kept the main Roman force busy while he turned on and defeated Gellius then returned with his whole force to defeat the blocking force as well. At this point Spartacus declined to attack Rome and instead headed back to the South with his total band now numbering 120,000 or more.

The following year with the revolt now recognised as a serious issue a force of eight legions under Marcus Licinius Crassus was sent after the slaves. The slave army was trapped in the toe of Italy. Crassus sent two of his legions under Mummius to try to get behind Spartacus with orders not to engage. Sensing an opportunity for glory Mummius disobeyed and attacked only to be defeated. Crassus then attacked with his main force and for the first time the main slave army was beaten with several thousand casualties. Spartacus then tried to find ways to escape by sea to Sicily but was unable to do so. The slave retreated towards Rhegium follwed by Crassus who??™s legions built a line of fortifications across the isthmus to pen the slaves in.

With further veteran Roman troops under Pompey approaching the slaves made a desperate break out but were caught by Crassus??™ legions and defeated in detail in two further battles. Spartacus is believed to have died fighting. 5,000 fleeing slaves were caught by Pompey and slaughtered, the 6,000 slaves captured by Crassus were crucified along the road between Capua and Rome.

What JD is after is similar (probably shorter) bits of juicy or otherwise interesting information that can be put in the army list books as they are produced.

Hammy

One of my favourite quotes from the Skythians was Darius I invaded Scythia in 512BC.

The Scythians used a scorched earth policy, falling back through uncommitted tribes gathering support along the way.

Eventually Darius met the Scythian King Idanthyrsus and demanded either open battle or tribute. Idanthyrsus responded that Darius would get the gifts he deserved and he would pay dearly for demanding tribute.

Eventually Darius received his gifts: a mouse, a frog, a bird and five arrows. Darius interpreted this as the Scythians offering him their land (where mice live), their water (by the frogs), their horses (the bird symbolising their freedom) and laying down their weapons.

An unamed courtier interpreted the gifts differently, if you Persians do not fly away like the birds, or hide in the earth like mice, or leap into a lake like frogs, then you will die underneath our arrows.

The continuing campaign convinced Darius that the second interpretation was the correct one.

Darius suffered under the Scythians refusal to fight a pitched battle and following almost constant ambushes and pin-prick like attacks eventually fled back to Persia leaving his wounded and baggage behind!

I'm a bit of a Pontic tragic loving the variety in this implacable enemy of the Romans. Just about everything you read talks about 3 battles - 2nd Chaeronea, Orchomenus and Zela. When you read this sort of thing it's like "What a bunch of losers, the Romans really were unbeatable!" This gives the wrong impression of a state that challenged Rome and defeated her several times on land and sea not to mention the victories they had while extending their Black Sea empire. I'd like to see mention of the River Amnias, Halys River? (Mithridates over Murena 81BC), defeat of Cotta, Chalcedon/Cyzicus, defeat by Pompey at Dasteira. Pharnaces victory at Nicopolis and final defeat at Zela. It took 4 of Romes best generals to finally put Pontus down - Sulla, Lucullus, Pompey and Caesar. Also need to mention the link between Pontus and Armenia as Tigranocerta and Artaxarta are more correctly part of the 3rd Mithridatoic War.

Surely such a nation deserves better then they normally get from army list writers? I'll leave it to all you learned wordsmiths to put it together :}


John O

Hi ,

some questions about the kallapani :
1. mounted foot ? I don't find their mouvement allowance when they are on board ?
2. do they march as light chariots ? ( up to 6 MU of any enemy ? )
3. do they dismount automatically ? ( within 6MU ? )

I 'm firstly curious about the assyrian army to play the pethalle teams ( very attractive for painting )
I began to collect the accurate minis from essex range when I discovered the problem of the mounted foot kallapanis , I 'll continue to assemble the army but I need some help and answer on it , thanks in advance and sorry for my approximative english wording

thefrenchjester " waiting the script for my future jester's tear " (in gaming of course )

extract from a song of FISH (ex- marillion singer ) my prefered group of all the times

hammy wrote:In an effort to help JD out here is an example of the kind of thing I think he is looking for. These are the historical notes I put together for the Slave Revolt list.

In 73 BC Spartacus was one of a group of 70 gladiators who broke out of the school of Lentulus Batiatus in Capua. The rebels initially used kitchen implements to break out but obtained several carts of gladiatorial equipment during their escape. The escaped slaves then defeated a small force sent to recapture them taking their arms and armour to add to their arsenal.

...

What JD is after is similar (probably shorter) bits of juicy or otherwise interesting information that can be put in the army list books as they are produced.

Hammy

Yes, please do make these historical notes shorter or translation to local versions will run the risk of taking forever.

As as afterthought, that will be a temptation hard to resist as these notes per the previous example can be so interesting

Kyrenean Greek army list

Don’t know if this has changed since the one you sent me prior to Leeds, but here are a few items you could include in the list or notes (after distillation):

1. There is a fair amount of evidence of Spartans participating in the early colonisations. This is summarised in :

G Schaus: Evidence for Laconians in Cyrenaica in the Archaic perriod.
Cyrenaica in Antiquity: Procedings of the 3rd conference (Newnham College Cambridge, 1983), G Barker, J Lloyd, J Reynolds eds, Society for Libyan studies Occasional Papers I, BAR international series 236, 1985.

e.g. Pausanias says a Lakedaimonian Olympic victor, Chionis "took part in the expedition of Battus of thera, helped him to found Cyrene and to reduce the neighbouring Libyans".

This suggests there could be an option to upgrade some hoplites as Laconian colonists to drilled. Available from the start of the list to about 570 BC (10 years after the last major wave of colonists circa 580). They would have been perioikoi, not Spartiates, so not superior.

2. According to Pausanias:

From 405 BC the Kyrenean city of Euesperides was reinforced by Messenians expelled from Naupactus by the Spartans. The only troop type mentioned is slingers, who had participated at Sphacteria and their leader there (Comon) is named as commanding the exiles too. No numbers are mentioned, so not sure if he would qualify as an ally general with a substantial contingent. More likely just add an extra BG of 6-8 slingers between 405 and 370, when they all went home after the battle of Leuctra. During and prior to this period Euesperides was in conflict with the local Libyans, so Libyan allies should not be allowed if this option is taken.

However, Diodorus Siculus says (for 401 BC):

[3] The Messenians, being now driven from every place because of their ancient hatred of the Spartans, departed with their arms from Greece, and some of them, sailing to Sicily, took service as mercenaries with Dionysius, while others, about three thousand in number, sailed to Cyrene and joined the forces of exiles there. [4] For at that time disorder had broken out among the Cyrenaeans, since Ariston, together with certain others, had seized the city. Of the Cyrenaeans, five hundred of the most influential citizens had recently been put to death and the most respected among the survivors had been banished. [5] The exiles now added the Messenians to their number and joined battle with the men who had seized the city, and many of the Cyrenaeans were slain on both sides, but the Messenians were killed almost to a man. [6] After the battle the Cyrenaeans negotiated with each other and agreed to be reconciled, and they immediately swore oaths not to remember past injuries and lived together as one body in the city.

This seems to be an additional 3000 Messeneans as they joined the Kyreneans, not the Euesperiteans. I don’t have the original text so I don’t know if "with their arms" used the word "hopla" which would imply hoplites, or they might have been slingers too. These numbers would be a couple of BGs, possibly treated as an allied contingent..




3. Thucidides, Peloponesian war, 7.50

L. While the Athenians lingered on in this way without moving from where they were, Gylippus and Sicanus now arrived at Syracuse. Sicanus had failed to gain Agrigentum, the party friendly to the Syracusans having been driven out while he was still at Gela; but Gylippus was accompanied not only by a large number of troops raised in Sicily, but by the heavy infantry sent off in the spring from Peloponnese in the merchantmen (holkas), who had arrived at Selinus from Libya. [2] They had been carried to Libya by a storm, and having obtained two galleys (trieres) and pilots from the Cyrenians, on their voyage along shore had taken sides with the Euesperitae and had defeated the Libyans who were besieging them, and from thence coasting on to Neapolis, a Carthaginian mart, and the nearest point to Sicily, from which it is only two days' and a night's voyage, there crossed over and came to Selinus.

So this should allow Spartan allies in 414 BC, again with no Libyan allies allowed.

In Luke U-S’s alternative DBM list he grades them as:
Only Euesperides in 414 BC or 413 BC:
Spartan allies:
- - - Ally-general - Reg Sp (I) @ 14 AP 1**
- - - Spartan neodamodeis and helot hoplites - Reg Sp (I) @ 4 AP 7**-15
- - - Transports - Irr Shp (O) @ 3 AP [Spartan Sp] 0 or 1 per Spartan Sp
- - - Replace transports with trieres - Reg Gal (O) @ 3 AP [Spartan general] 0-1


4. According to Diodorus Siculus:

The Kyrenean/Libyan/Carthaginian arrmy in 322 mustered 30000 troops, but was defeated by Thibron with his mercenaries and Barka/Euesperides allies.

This suggests that Thibron’s army was substantial enough to be included as an option in its own right. Thibron had 6000-7000 mercenaries at the start of the campaign, for which the Greek word is "misthophoroi" - I don’t know if this implies a particular troop type or is just a general term for mercenary. He did lose "many of his soldiers" but was subsequently reinforced by 2500 more mercenaries. All these mercenaries came from Asia, not sure if we can conclude anything from that about their equipment. They were originally hired by Harpalus, who was in charge of Alexander’s treasury at Babylon and had done a bunk with the money. Thibron, described as Harpalus’ friend, murdered him and took over the cash and troops (with friends like that, who needs enemies?), then invaded Kyrenaica. Thibron brought Cyrenean exiles with him, and mercenary commanders, one of whom defected to the Kyreneans (after a financial dispute).

So the Thibron option would have (assuming 250 men per base) up to 28 bases of mercenaries, probably replacing Kyrenean hoplites and 0-1 sub-general. A limited number of unreplaced Kyreneans would be exiles in the core line of command, remaining Kyreneans would be commanded by 1-2 ally generals.


5. Terrain types:

Developed, Agricultural, for core farmed areas

Hilly, for the north slopes of the Jebel and "The Great Slope" referred to in Polybios (presumably Halfaya Pass).

Desert. Most of the flat land in the region is normally described as steppe or occasionally semi-desert. It seems to conform to the FOG Desert definition though: e.g. the following from a book on Rommel’s Desert Intelligence Operations :

Vast wadis could remain invisible even from a short distance away. ...Obstacles frequently met with were: regions of windborne sands, normally on the lee side of elevations; crusts of pebbles under which soft sand would be found; pieces of rock; hillocks of sand covered with round bushes; wadis with steep precipices and soft sandy bottoms.

British guidelines identified the different types of going to be expected in the desert: hard gravel, called serir by the Bedouins; stony, rock-littered hammada; sand dunes; and mud.

Thanks Lawrence, very interesting.

lawrenceg wrote:5. Terrain types:

Developed, Agricultural, for core farmed areas

Hilly, for the north slopes of the Jebel and "The Great Slope" referred to in Polybios (presumably Halfaya Pass).

Desert. Most of the flat land in the region is normally described as steppe or occasionally semi-desert. It seems to conform to the FOG Desert definition though: e.g. the following from a book on Rommel’s Desert Intelligence Operations :

Vast wadis could remain invisible even from a short distance away. ...Obstacles frequently met with were: regions of windborne sands, normally on the lee side of elevations; crusts of pebbles under which soft sand would be found; pieces of rock; hillocks of sand covered with round bushes; wadis with steep precipices and soft sandy bottoms.

British guidelines identified the different types of going to be expected in the desert: hard gravel, called serir by the Bedouins; stony, rock-littered hammada; sand dunes; and mud.

For future reference the territory types in each list are not based on all of the territory of a state, but only of those parts they are likely to have felt the need to defend.

rbodleyscott wrote:Thanks Lawrence, very interesting.

lawrenceg wrote:5. Terrain types:

Developed, Agricultural, for core farmed areas

Hilly, for the north slopes of the Jebel and "The Great Slope" referred to in Polybios (presumably Halfaya Pass).

Desert. Most of the flat land in the region is normally described as steppe or occasionally semi-desert. It seems to conform to the FOG Desert definition though: e.g. the following from a book on Rommel’s Desert Intelligence Operations :

Vast wadis could remain invisible even from a short distance away. ...Obstacles frequently met with were: regions of windborne sands, normally on the lee side of elevations; crusts of pebbles under which soft sand would be found; pieces of rock; hillocks of sand covered with round bushes; wadis with steep precipices and soft sandy bottoms.

British guidelines identified the different types of going to be expected in the desert: hard gravel, called serir by the Bedouins; stony, rock-littered hammada; sand dunes; and mud.

For future reference the territory types in each list are not based on all of the territory of a state, but only of those parts they are likely to have felt the need to defend.

The Kyreneans only occupied the coastal strip and the Jebel Akhdar. The desert does extend all the way to the coast (as far as I can tell, not having been there) and Polybios describes Ptolemy making a 6 day march "through the desert" but apparently in touch with part of his force on ships until they met a Kyrenean army. If the first battle was at Halfaya Pass, this would make the second one probably near Tobruk, or maybe Gazala if he was marching at Roman speed. Polybios does not name the place, so it may have been a convenient point in the desert, but it may have been a settled area. Other battles are harder to pinpoint (except sieges), but they were almost certainly near the cities of the Pentapolis, either on the coast or on the northern part of the Jebel plateau (most likely developed or agricultural).