Slitherine

Hi all,

This has no doubt been dealt with before but with such a back log of posts i've struggled to find what i'm looking for.

So...i have a heavy foot army (e.g. Macedonian phalanx).

How do i deal with a skirmish army like the Numidans?

All basic tactics, advice and experiences are welcomed.

Line up across the table and just march across. Try to drive some enemy BG off so some troops get double moves.

You can deploy 2 ranks deep (rather than 4) so doubling your width for the phalanx if there are no serious enemy troops about.

Wait for v2 with everything crossed, and play another ruleset in the meantime.

Tim (madaxeman) is incapable of coping with skirmish armies and thinks that using ahistorical tactics he learnt using other rule sets will work with FoG. He was wrong and has become very bitter and twisted. I should put a smiley now, a bit like Tim's, but won't.

However I will reply to the OP at a more godly hour.

There are a variety of options.

1) Don't deploy in the center with both flanks in the air.

Other options.
a) anchor your line on a terrain piece and wheel out from there.
b) Anchor one end on the board edge, making sure its strong enough not to be broken through. THen mass your mounted on the inside table. Don't commit the mounted where it can be swamped, but wait for the rest of the army to swing out.

You then turn the table to the short ends and march down the length.

Put your pike 3 wide. That means he needs at least 3 hits to have a test.
Deploy more compact so you always have rear support and a general in range (even an IC) so you are less likley to fail.
Mix 1 BG of LH into you Batteline, so when he evades from the Pike charge the LH can catch enemy LH in rear and start killing them.

The big thing from the above is don't make the common mistake and leave things for the mounted to pick on in isolated format.

Don't send your lancers off chasing him until them get swarmed.

hazelbark wrote:There are a variety of options.

1) Don't deploy in the center with both flanks in the air.

Other options.
a) anchor your line on a terrain piece and wheel out from there.
b) Anchor one end on the board edge, making sure its strong enough not to be broken through. THen mass your mounted on the inside table. Don't commit the mounted where it can be swamped, but wait for the rest of the army to swing out.

You then turn the table to the short ends and march down the length.

Put your pike 3 wide. That means he needs at least 3 hits to have a test.
Deploy more compact so you always have rear support and a general in range (even an IC) so you are less likley to fail.
Mix 1 BG of LH into you Batteline, so when he evades from the Pike charge the LH can catch enemy LH in rear and start killing them.

The big thing from the above is don't make the common mistake and leave things for the mounted to pick on in isolated format.

Don't send your lancers off chasing him until them get swarmed.

All good advice.

Be careful of putting your troops in two lines that way you allow the skirmishers the ability to hit you on every base ie 4 hits since pike are protected its not impossible. Use Medium foot to chase LH down if you can they are quite good at that.

The original question should perhaps be clarified - by "dealt with" do you mean a) going all-out to get a decisive victory; b) taking fewer risks and settling for a marginal victory; or c) priority is on avoiding defeat and put the onus on the skirmish army to take more risks (which you might be able to exploit) if they themselves want to get a decisive victory?

Your approach would probably be different in each case.

e.g. if your approach is c)...If you have an army of solid troops, with sufficient generals to provide cohesion/bolster coverage wherever it is needed (and ideally an IC for the +2), and rear support at the most vulnerable points in your line to concentrated shooting (especially at the ends, and perhaps behind any shock troops that might be tempted to get out of line due to involuntary charges), and you are prepared to be patient, it can be quite hard for skirmishing alone to achieve any lasting damage.

Your opponent may then put skirmishing BGs into slightly more risky positions in an effort to get as much concentrated fire as possible, and maybe you get a chance to catch them for a change. Or maybe he commits his meatier troops to combat in a situation where you can beat them, giving you a narrow victory.

Excellent advice chaps (especially Hazelbark, cheers!), i'll definately try those things out.

What about including MF archers. Will they help?

hazelbark wrote:You then turn the table to the short ends and march down the length.

I try this every time, but end up with 'time' being called. I hate playing against skirmisher armies because it makes for a boring game where nothing happens.

I suppose the skirmishers could complain the same way ('I hate playing against heavy foot armies, it makes for a boring game').

Skirmisher armies are notoriously difficult for non skirmisher armies to beat. That was also the case historically so while it can be a bit boring it is to a large extrent just the way things were.

It is also pretty difficult for a skirmisher army to beat a heavy foot army.

The main think for the foot is to make sure that they don't throw away the parts of their army that can catch and beat the skirmishers. Use the foot as a mobile terrain feature. Possibly even have the foot 1 rank deep but if you do that make sure they have a commander and rear support otherwise they will be shot to bits.

hammy wrote: Possibly even have the foot 1 rank deep but if you do that make sure they have a commander and rear support otherwise they will be shot to bits.

I was thinking this...edge to edge, strung out so the skirmishers have nowhere to go and then just march them off the board. Large (12 base) BGs would have a bit of durability i suspect, but you're right, rear support and busy commanders (bolstering) would be vital.
Wouldn't this give the opponent the opportunity to concentrate on and break through a thin part of the line though?

My other thought is max out the archers and corner-sit. Boring but it means you don't lose tournament victory points. The only problem there are flank marches i suppose.

Luddite wrote:

hammy wrote: Possibly even have the foot 1 rank deep but if you do that make sure they have a commander and rear support otherwise they will be shot to bits.

I was thinking this...edge to edge, strung out so the skirmishers have nowhere to go and then just march them off the board. Large (12 base) BGs would have a bit of durability i suspect, but you're right, rear support and busy commanders (bolstering) would be vital.
Wouldn't this give the opponent the opportunity to concentrate on and break through a thin part of the line though?

Usually most "skirmisher" armies do have some hard-hitting mobile units who can concentrate on one area.

Even without them, you can easily end up taking 2-5 cohesion tests for shooting every turn somewhere along your line. And it takes heavy foot 11-12 moves, or almost twice that many turns of being shot at, turns to get across the board - statistically you will inevitably find it hard to keep the whole army intact given the sheer number of tests you end up taking.

With a Macedonian type army that has to have decent amounts of protected, heavy and medium foot it will always be incredibly tough to force a win. As some of the other posters have inferred, aiming for a draw and forcing the other player to commit is maybe the next best bet.

Luddite wrote:Excellent advice chaps (especially Hazelbark, cheers!), i'll definately try those things out.

What about including MF archers. Will they help?

They will, provided that you have enough of them, or stuff to protect them. How much is enough is hugely variable based on their quality - you need a lot of average bow, but if you are superior then 12 or 16 make a big difference. Being drilled also is relevant, as undrilled archers can be picked off by sneaky mounted who split their fire.

Good options: 100yw english, eap, christian nubian, kofun nara.

Luddite wrote:
I was thinking this...edge to edge, strung out so the skirmishers have nowhere to go and then just march them off the board.

If you do this you'll lose most times, as madaxeman has said you'll take so many tests there will be a chance of dropping a level, doing that in your turn could turn a disrupted unit to a fragged unit in your opponents turn.

I think your focus is a bit fixed on the ability of them evading, think what you can kill and go for it. I have played people who spread out along the table thinking they could push me of the table and i just took my time and in the end shot one 6 base armoured BG down to fragged and then charged them.(me using average LH not superior either)

Don't fall into the idea that skirmishers are the killer army, they are not, watch for any mistake your opponent does it can be easy for them to get their LH/LF in the wrong place and then you'll have a good chance to beat them.

The trick is to not let your army get pulled apart. make sure that you follow up any charges with supporting infantry and or mounted. Try to herd the enemy into situations where he cannot easily manuever. Rear support doubles as flank guards.

gozerius wrote:The trick is to not let your army get pulled apart. make sure that you follow up any charges with supporting infantry and or mounted. Try to herd the enemy into situations where he cannot easily manuever. Rear support doubles as flank guards.

Agree. Absolutely you must maintain the overall cohesion of the army. Make sure that no BG ends up isolated (i.e., ensure that the BG's in front are supported - not just rear support but overlapping restricted zones, interception zones, etc.) unless it's a BG being sacrificed for a clear overall gain.

I've beaten Cimmerians with Akkadians (well winning draw but that's good enough for me). My advice:

1. Use lots of Phalanx. I had 4 x 10 average protected HF Defensive spear, 24 superior MF and 8 superior unprotected HF. deploy them about two deep, a bit deeper if going near table edges. Have rear support for the average guys and four generals. You'll lose some bases to shooting so be a little bit deeper than neceasaruy at the beginning.

2. Deployment is by far the most important thing. you don't want to waste time manouvering so get it right to start with. You need a deployment where you can, pretty much, march straight forwards throughout the game.

3. Use some foot skirmishers of your own. They won't be much use to start with but as the game wears on and the enemy generals get busy it helps to keep causing cohesion tests.

4. Lose the initiative roll. Then you move the HF 6 MU to start with.

5. Move quickly. Your good deployment help here. It shouldn't take long to move the army stright forwards.

6. Keep together. Longish line, no gaps. that way the enemy can't get round your line easily. A single enemy battle group behind you is probably manageable, two or more is life threatening.

7. Don't worry about losing your camp - every BG going towards that is one that isn't shooting you.

8. You'll fail the odd cohesion test. Keep going! Take as much pressure off anyone who goes disrupted as you can but you still need to advance.

9. It'll feel horribly difficult to catch the enemy to start with. Stick to the plan and keep moving quickly. You'll score all your points in the last hour. It's demoralising for the enemy too as they find they don't get the hits to make you test, can't do enough hits to give you a -1, and then you test on a +2 because of general and rear support. Eventually they lose the initiative as they see they can't shoot you down and may panic!

grahambriggs wrote: 9. It'll feel horribly difficult to catch the enemy to start with. Stick to the plan and keep moving quickly. You'll score all your points in the last hour. It's demoralising for the enemy too as they find they don't get the hits to make you test, can't do enough hits to give you a -1, and then you test on a +2 because of general and rear support. Eventually they lose the initiative as they see they can't shoot you down and may panic!

This is key. You need to keep pressing hard. And move fast enough to get lots of turns in. Then all of a sudden the enemy realizes that he needs to start worrying about his base edge. Then he is under pressure.

grahambriggs wrote:I've beaten Cimmerians with Akkadians (well winning draw but that's good enough for me).

That's as good as it gets !

grahambriggs wrote:
1. Use lots of Phalanx. I had 4 x 10 average protected HF Defensive spear, 24 superior MF and 8 superior unprotected HF. deploy them about two deep, a bit deeper if going near table edges. Have rear support for the average guys and four generals. You'll lose some bases to shooting so be a little bit deeper than neceasaruy at the beginning.

Of course, and pick an army with the option for some of those relatively shooting-proof 10-strong units, and lots of superiors too.