Slitherine

The question is can the phalanx declare a charge against the spear men, but to get bases into combat the Phalanx will need to drop into a column to pass friendly troops (the archers, who are not in combat BTW)?

I believe they can drop into a column and charge

They can and must test not to if they don't

And if the Phalanx decides not to charge, and fails its CMT (thus charging anyway), it does not drop bases back but instead bursts through the LF.

Marc

babyshark wrote:And if the Phalanx decides not to charge, and fails its CMT (thus charging anyway), it does not drop bases back but instead bursts through the LF.

Marc

Agreed, but the question is can it choose to charge, by dropping to a column

Unless I'm really losing it - always a possibility - a charging BG can always drop a file back to avoid friends and this is clearly stated in the rules. Somewhat puzzeled as to how the question arises

nikgaukroger wrote:Unless I'm really losing it - always a possibility - a charging BG can always drop a file back to avoid friends and this is clearly stated in the rules. Somewhat puzzled as to how the question arises

Thanks for that. my opponent believe that I must burst though my LF as you can not reduce the number of base thats make contract, but I believed I should be drop into a column when I charged to avoid friends.

I am not sure the phalanx need interpenetrate the LF if forced to charge by failing a CMT. I believe if it can drop back when voluntarily charging it can also do so when forced to charge.

Being Leslies opponent I admit I have lost the the two rule points, but i did win the battle....

david53 wrote:Being Leslie's opponent I admit I have lost the the two rule points, but i did win the battle....

only because my left flank unit of pike double dropped, when a general died which you kill with a double six and your Dailami where within charge range.

ethan wrote:I am not sure the phalanx need interpenetrate the LF if forced to charge by failing a CMT. I believe if it can drop back when voluntarily charging it can also do so when forced to charge.

Can we get a definitive statement on this please?

Is it:

A. In both cases (a voluntarily declared charge and a failed CMT not to charge) the charging BG can opt to/must drop back one file to avoid 'bursting through' the LF, or

B. The charging BG can only opt to drop back one file in a declared charge. In a failed CMT it is not permitted to drop back and must burst through the LF.

THe definiative statement is:

voluntary charge must drop back.

voluntary charge must drop back.

FWIW I agree.

I must disagree with Ethan's post though - sorry Ethan. If the pike didn't choose to charge - and then failed it's CMT to initiate a charge without orders - it cannot choose to drop back. See Page 58 - If it fails, it must burst through the friends.

petedalby wrote:

voluntary charge must drop back.

FWIW I agree.

I must disagree with Ethan's post though - sorry Ethan. If the pike didn't choose to charge - and then failed it's CMT to initiate a charge without orders - it cannot choose to drop back. See Page 58 - If it fails, it must burst through the friends.

I believe Pete is correct.

The pike can charge and, if they choose to do so must drop into a column as no interpenetrations are allowed while charging.

If they test no to charge and fail they will instead burst through their friends, who'll drop a cohesion level as " Otherwise the battle group must take a CMT as normal. If it fails, it must burst through the friends. (Note that a player cannot choose to allow his shock troops to burst through in this way, they can only do so if they fail their CMT and charge without orders)."

grahambriggs wrote:The pike can charge and, if they choose to do so must drop into a column as no interpenetrations are allowed while charging.

If they test no to charge and fail they will instead burst through their friends, who'll drop a cohesion level as " Otherwise the battle group must take a CMT as normal. If it fails, it must burst through the friends. (Note that a player cannot choose to allow his shock troops to burst through in this way, they can only do so if they fail their CMT and charge without orders)."

OK, so the definitive statement is that things are completely different depending on whether it is a voluntarily declared charge or a failed CMT not to charge:

1. voluntarily declared charge - COMPULSORY to drop back as you can't 'voluntarily' charge through your friends
2. failed CMT - NOT permitted to drop back and COMPULSORY to burst through your friends

zoltan wrote:

grahambriggs wrote:The pike can charge and, if they choose to do so must drop into a column as no interpenetrations are allowed while charging.

If they test no to charge and fail they will instead burst through their friends, who'll drop a cohesion level as " Otherwise the battle group must take a CMT as normal. If it fails, it must burst through the friends. (Note that a player cannot choose to allow his shock troops to burst through in this way, they can only do so if they fail their CMT and charge without orders)."

OK, so the definitive statement is that things are completely different depending on whether it is a voluntarily declared charge or a failed CMT not to charge:

1. voluntarily declared charge - COMPULSORY to drop back as you can't 'voluntarily' charge through your friends
2. failed CMT - NOT permitted to drop back and COMPULSORY to burst through your friends

Yup, that is what the rules say. It is IMO pretty clear as well.

I remain not entirely convinced.
True, they have to charge if they test and fail, and true they have to burst through friends if necessary to complete the charge.
I don't see anything in the wording that says they are not permitted to contract if they can still complete the charge.
That would seem to be one that could be argued both ways.

I remain not entirely convinced.

Okay - but please re-check P58 - the last bullet? The wording is 'it must burst through' - so by allowing a contraction in a compulsory charge surely you would contravene this requirement?

I remain not entirely convinced

.

Same with me.

In the middle of the right hand column p.58:

" Otherwise if shock troops would normally be required to test to prevent them from charging with out orders,the following rules apply if they could not contact the enemy with out passing through friends,
even by wheeling and/or dropping bases back".

for me that implies that they do drop bases back to make contact in the charge, but if they can't get in by contracting a base width they burst through the friendly BG.

I can't see where the rules distinguish between a voluntary and a compulsory charge in this case.

The wording is 'it must burst through' - so by allowing a contraction in a compulsory charge surely you would contravene this requirement?

don't that mean if they can't drop back a base width though? Like it refers to in the previous paragraph?