Slitherine

Couldn't find a previous post to add to so here goes.

A 4 base wide BG of knights has two enemy LH immediately to it's front. One LH is a nat's todger away, the other LH just under 4 MU away. The angle of the knight BG is such that it has one base completely behind a line extending the front of an enemy BG of elephants close to the LH at just under 4 MU.

The knights declare a charge including a wheel such that if both LH evade the knights will contact the flank of the elephant BG.

The knights do charge; both LH do evade (more than 4 MU). Are the knights permitted to make their declared wheel and charge into the elephants' flank? Or are the knights required to ignore their declared wheel and chase off after the LH (requiring them to go straight ahead, ignoring the wheel they declared when declaring their charge)?

The RAW don't require any wheels to be declared at charge time, although by convention they generally are. If all the LH evade out of reach, do the knights have full rights to wheel any which way to contact a fresh enemy?

p68, "If all target battle groups evade out of the original path of the charge, the chargers can wheel in an attempt to catch them"

1. "Can wheel" - So it would your choice whether to change direction to follow evaders or not, however:
2. It is not true in this case that all target BGs have evaded out of the original path (p52, "If a battle group is revealed...it becomes a target for the charge".) So you must follow the original declared charge path, and smack into the flank of the elephants.

Note that although the rules could indeed be clearer on when charge directions are declared, you can assume they must have been declared before any evade moves are resolved, because
a) Otherwise how would the evaders know what the direction of the charge was, so they can evade in that direction should they choose to do so.
b) Without the charge path being known, it may not be possible to determine which BGs are targets and therefore which BGs even have the option of evading in the first place.

Agreed.

You can always follow through on orginal charge.

The direction of the charge has to be clear before the evaders roll as they get to opt for direction.

Something like this.

The right most knight base is (just) completely behind a line extending the elephants' frontage.

Both LH evade to their rear.

Can the knights opt to execute their declared right wheel and (just) hit the side edge of the elephants?

Or must the knights disregard their declared right wheel and replace it with a left wheel to chase off after the evading LH?

Do the knights have the option to chose which wheel they make?

The knights cannot wheel more than the original position of the LH bases - this is covered in the FAQs, so the charge direction is illegal.

They can basically only charge straight forwards.

Furthermore, even if they could wheel, which I agree they cannot, then it would not constitue a valid flank charge as theknights ae within 1 inch when wheeling to hit the flank.

hoodlum wrote:Furthermore, even if they could wheel, which I agree they cannot, then it would not constitue a valid flank charge as theknights ae within 1 inch when wheeling to hit the flank.

Correct. Another reason they can not charge the elephants in the flank is that none of the knights' bases are fully behind the elephants' extended base front.

dave_r wrote:The knights cannot wheel more than the original position of the LH bases - this is covered in the FAQs, so the charge direction is illegal.

They can basically only charge straight forwards.

Which specific FAQ are you referring to please?

atatnet wrote:

hoodlum wrote:Furthermore, even if they could wheel, which I agree they cannot, then it would not constitue a valid flank charge as theknights ae within 1 inch when wheeling to hit the flank.

Correct. Another reason they can not charge the elephants in the flank is that none of the knights' bases are fully behind the elephants' extended base front.

I positioned the elephants in the photo too close to the knights - they were actually over 1 MU away. I also said in my original post that one base of the knights was behind a line extending the elephants' front edge.

zoltan wrote:

dave_r wrote:The knights cannot wheel more than the original position of the LH bases - this is covered in the FAQs, so the charge direction is illegal.

They can basically only charge straight forwards.

Which specific FAQ are you referring to please?

"The chargers can wheel onto the direction of charge and if this is sufficient to hit the revealed target it may hit them. This direction of charge is determined BEFORE evaders are moved. It cannot result in less bases making contact with the
original target (prior to evading) than if the chargers charged straight ahead, nor can the wheel continue past the point of contact with the original target had they not evaded."

So once you have made your wheel you then can't keep going after the skirmishers have gotten out the way.

zoltan wrote:

dave_r wrote:The knights cannot wheel more than the original position of the LH bases - this is covered in the FAQs, so the charge direction is illegal.

They can basically only charge straight forwards.

Which specific FAQ are you referring to please?

http://www.fieldofglory.com/file/FAQ_ver5.01.pdf

Its very clear on page 3 under "Can the chargers wheel to hit the new target?"

"Can the chargers wheel to hit the new target?

The chargers can wheel onto the direction of charge and if this is sufficient to hit the revealed target it may hit them. This direction of charge is determined BEFORE evaders are moved. It cannot result in less bases making contact with the original target (prior to evading) than if the chargers charge satraight ahead..."

So are you saying that because only 1 knight would contact the elephants compared to up to 4 knights contacting the LH (if they had not evaded), the knights are NOT permitted to wheel onto the (declared) direction of charge as it would mean "less bases making contact"?

zoltan wrote:"Can the chargers wheel to hit the new target?

The chargers can wheel onto the direction of charge and if this is sufficient to hit the revealed target it may hit them. This direction of charge is determined BEFORE evaders are moved. It cannot result in less bases making contact with the original target (prior to evading) than if the chargers charge satraight ahead..."

So are you saying that because only 1 knight would contact the elephants compared to up to 4 knights contacting the LH (if they had not evaded), the knights are NOT permitted to wheel onto the (declared) direction of charge as it would mean "less bases making contact"?

No, what we are saying is that the maximum wheel you can do has to be made before the LH evade. Once the Light Horse have evaded you can't wheel further just because they aren't there.

dave_r wrote: No, what we are saying is that the maximum wheel you can do has to be made before the LH evade. Once the Light Horse have evaded you can't wheel further just because they aren't there.

I still don't get it . The evaders move before the chargers so how can "...the maximum wheel...has to be made before the LH evade."?

Do you mean the position of the LH before they evade limits how much of a wheel the knights can declare/actually move?

zoltan wrote:Do you mean the position of the LH before they evade limits how much of a wheel the knights can declare/actually move?

Yes. In effect if you put skirmishers hard up against the front of a BG that may charge it cannot wheel.

From the FAQ
"This direction of charge is determined BEFORE evaders are moved. It cannot result in less bases making contact with the
original target (prior to evading) than if the chargers charged straight ahead, nor can the wheel continue past the point of
contact with the original target had they not evaded"

philqw78 wrote:From the FAQ
"This direction of charge is determined BEFORE evaders are moved. It cannot result in less bases making contact with the
original target (prior to evading) than if the chargers charged straight ahead, nor can the wheel continue past the point of
contact with the original target had they not evaded"

Hence if skirmishers are up close any wheel is going to be very small.

IMHO this is an unhelpful FAQ. I can't see why a few skirmishers would prevent proper troops charging at any angle they liked - except by standing and fighting.

Because the LH are the target of the charge. And they could choose to fight. Therefore your charge has to be at them and not at something juicier that you hope will be a target should the LH evade.

grahambriggs wrote:IMHO this is an unhelpful FAQ. I can't see why a few skirmishers would prevent proper troops charging at any angle they liked - except by standing and fighting.

Well clearly it was chosen on the theory that it limits cheesy wheel charges. Its byprodcut is it allows cheesy skirmishers from preventing wheeled charges.

I think part of the philosophy is how dense a mass of of people do you think the skirmishers represent? If thin, then this makes little sense. If thick, then they constitute a real threat to the chargers who take them seriously.

Cheesy or not in gaming terms, the use of skirmishers to prevent enemy charging more valuable targets might be historically correct.