Slitherine

Absolutely flabbergasted today when a rule I thought I understood was interpreted in a way I could not imagine by the guys at Oxford club today.

Basically situation is Heavy artillery battlegroup has a pike and shot battle group in front edge contact with its rear edge.

Then moves the pike and shot forward 3 inches including a wheel from the front of the artillery battlegroup.

As far as I knew the pike/shot could only move so that its rear edge would end touching the Artillery front edge.

The guys at Oxford claim the bit in supporting artillery says that the pike/shot bg counts as being at the front edge for all circumstances when I thought this only applied for shooting and being shot at and distances for cohesion tests.

Have I got this bit completely wrong because thats a complete game changer for me if you can do that and it will be the first bit of the rules I will now have found that I don't like.

cheers
Jim

This does seem to be the curent interpretation - I brought up some of the implications in this thread:-

viewtopic.php?t=21899

Concensus was that moving off from the front was OK but charging from a position equivalent to the front of the guns was not (because it involved interpenetration - though I think even that might be up for debate). So if you multiple move presumably in your first move you could come up to the back of guns and in a second move you could continue from the front - giving a small teleport

it has it's oddities but I don't think it's a game breaker

Hadn't realised that, so thanks for the heads up.

Don

I don't agree that you can move off from the front of the artillery.

It says you can move from the back to front or front to back not the front to the front which appears to be what would be happening in this instance. So I don't see that the rules have a mechanism for moving off from the front of the artillery position.

cheers
Jim

Look at it this way. Your not just looking at the Interpenetration rule here( top right p.67) but also the Artillery in contact with enemy rule second bullet (p.126 right column).

Which state that a battle group giving rear support to artillery treats it's front edge as the front edge of the artillery. The battlegroup is still where the figures/bases are but it's front edge is assumed to be the front edge of the artillery. Thus it can move (measuring the distance) from the front of the artillery. But it can only interpenertate the artillery perpendicularly from back to front as such cannot maneuver until it's rear edge has cleared the artillery battle group.

Thats how I read it any road.

I thought they had got rid of the interpenetration cheese of the ancient rules but what your saying is they have not and effectively we are giving the foot an extra 4cm move.
I don't like it one bit.

cheers
Jim

As it is written I, between both rules would say so. It is not going to happen that often. I don't think you could gain anything by multiple moves unless with a single battlegroup with a general, moving up from behind and though. It's easy to remove, if the Authurs want gone. Currently it is something I have never done, as I don't think it should be allowed.

hood_mick wrote:Look at it this way. Your not just looking at the Interpenetration rule here( top right p.67) but also the Artillery in contact with enemy rule second bullet (p.126 right column).

Which state that a battle group giving rear support to artillery treats it's front edge as the front edge of the artillery. The battlegroup is still where the figures/bases are but it's front edge is assumed to be the front edge of the artillery. Thus it can move (measuring the distance) from the front of the artillery. But it can only interpenertate the artillery perpendicularly from back to front as such cannot maneuver until it's rear edge has cleared the artillery battle group.

Thats how I read it any road.

Correct. (And without it, most foot cannot pass though artillery in 28mm scale). Clearly, this is an item for the putative FAQ. (I note that it is already covered in the "items for the FAQ" thread).

I don't think its all that big a deal and leaving your arty on its own is somewhat of a danger if your enemy ever gets within range of it. It can only happen once since its doubtful they will line up all their forces behind the guns to teleport through the arty on you. Send your cav into the unprotected guns and teach them a lesson about moving off the arty support like that.

Out of curiousity, does this mean that if an emeny moves within 2" of supported artillery, the supporting unit is pinned in the enemy's RA?

iversonjm wrote:Out of curiousity, does this mean that if an enemy moves within 2" of supported artillery, the supporting unit is pinned in the enemy's RA?

Certainly. (Restricted area can pass through your own LF too).

and what about : when someone fires at the "artillery" , what is he firing at ? the artillery or the supporting unit .
and
Can the supporting unit fire at the same time as the artillery ?

bahdahbum wrote:and what about : when someone fires at the "artillery" , what is he firing at ? the artillery or the supporting unit .
and
Can the supporting unit fire at the same time as the artillery ?

It does say that supporting bases directly behind the artillery don't fire. Presumably if you have two wide artillery and a three wide supporting BG one file of the support could fire as though it was directly adjacent to the artillery (from the same front line if you see what I mean).

For shooting at this formation I understand that the concensus is that the shooter can choose either the artillery or the support - and can switch that choice from one turn to the next.

It does raise the question - what happens if the artillery autobreaks from losses and is removed - does the support unit move into the artillery position or does it stay still (since it was previously considered at the artillery front line this would be equivalent to a "teleport" backwards by 40mm - watch out for whiplash!)

Maniakes wrote:It does raise the question - what happens if the artillery autobreaks from losses and is removed - does the support unit move into the artillery position

Of course - the rules say it is already there, so why wouldn't it?

Thank's .

Playing FOGAM V1, testing V2 and trying FOGR ....sometimes I must pay attention not to mix it all

having the same problem of brain juggling depending on what game we are running... FOG V2, FOG R....